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[Rio]

Hi,

I have a 2010 CVO Ultra.  I have a ThunderMax tuner, high flow air intake, and the new Rinehart true dual set up with the performance baffles.  I was considering having 575 Redshift Cams put in which would obviously require adjustible push rods, gaskets....I was going to have my local HD dealer do the work and a technician I know and trust, but then someone recommended a place in SE Michigan called Stevenson Cycle.  They are an authorized Zipper dealer and performance shop.  They said labor was about $325 which sounds about right, but then they also wanted to dyno the bike too?  T-Max is a self adjusting tuner, but it makes sense that setting the base map by putting the bike on the dyno sounds like the right thing to do too?  Hard to swallow the extra $350 for the dyno, but on the other hand, you skip a lot of trial and error going that route? I guess this would add up to about $1,200.00 or so when all is said and done?  Any thoughts?

[grc]

Thoughts:

1.  If you have a technician you know and trust, why would you drop him and go to a place you've never dealt with?  Are they planning to charge less than your guy, or do they profess some magical Zipper's knowledge (cams is cams, and installing them isn't different for a cam from Zipper's versus a cam from Andrews or anyone else).

2.  If you prefer one piece pushrods, you can probably do that utilizing one of the perfect fit pushrods available.  Need to know the difference in base circle diameter between the stock cams and the new ones to determine which pushrods to use.

3.  Even with a so-called "auto tune" device, the base map needs to be pretty close.  If you don't want to do the dyno tune, call Zipper's and see if they have a canned map for your combination that you can download.  If it were me, I'd do the dyno tune even though I'm a penny pincher in real life.


Jerry

[Rio]

Thanks Jerry,

Although I don't spend foolishly, spending money and not getting what you want is spending foolishly.  I have a real good guy at the HD dealer and sure they can dyno the bike too but he's not up to date with the ThunderMax.  I hate to go with the unknown, but these guys at Stevenson Cycle are Zipper dealers and they know the product.  I have a canned map now and it took about 2,000 miles and several auto tunes to get it right.  I hate to spend the money, but i like the idea of the bike being tuned on the dyno and the base map set specifically for my bike.  These guys sound like they know what their doing, but yeah the unknown and trust factor is big.  Thanks for the input.

[Dennis the Menace]

Crimson, as I recall, hte Redshift 575 cam was in several maps, so match up the cam with the other motor specs and use the closest map.  Since TMax ECM doesnt adjust timing, to get a perfect tune, you may need to adjust the timing, which it might help taking to a tuner.  Or, just Autotune it and get it as close as you can.

If it were me (a former Tmax user), I would load the closest map and Autotune it over 3-4 good runs, and see if it feels good.  If so, ride it. If not, then visit the tuner to get the rest left on the table.  I futzed with the settings so much and spent so much time on a tune, I wasnt having enough fun riding.

Dennis

[Rio]

Thanks,

I agree, i have spent a lot of time and miles getting the bike to the point it runs well now.  I like the idea of putting the bike on the dyno, becasue every bike is different and this would be the best way to set the base.  Zippers technicians will sit on the phone with you and help tune the bike with it running, or on a dyno.  I've heard great things about this Stevenson Cycle, but I have heard that the guy that owns it is a type "A" personality and he works off past experience  and knowledge.  Even though the basic concepts of a combustion engine are the same, they are all rolling 2 wheel computers while the basics are the same, the concept of tuning has changed.  I'm going to meet with the guy and pick his brain.  I will also talk to my local HD technician that i know and trust and see if he is willing to get on the phone with Zippers to tune the ECM?  I also like the dyno idea becasue using the auto tune method, i won't know where i stand until spring!

[guppytrash]

I have the Tmax/autotune and will eventually change to the 575 cams also.

Thoughts:

1.  If you have a technician you know and trust, why would you drop him and go to a place you've never dealt with?  Are they planning to charge less than your guy, or do they profess some magical Zipper's knowledge (cams is cams, and installing them isn't different for a cam from Zipper's versus a cam from Andrews or anyone else).

2.  If you prefer one piece pushrods, you can probably do that utilizing one of the perfect fit pushrods available.  Need to know the difference in base circle diameter between the stock cams and the new ones to determine which pushrods to use.

3.  Even with a so-called "auto tune" device, the base map needs to be pretty close.  If you don't want to do the dyno tune, call Zipper's and see if they have a canned map for your combination that you can download.  If it were me, I'd do the dyno tune even though I'm a penny pincher in real life.


Jerry

I could not agree more with Jerry on #1 and #2.
However on #3.  My personal experience with dyno tuners is 1 out of a 100 actually know how to use their equipment.  If you feel like rolling the dice with $350 you may get lucky and get the 1 out of the 100 that actually will do something good for your bike.   My personal experience with the Tmax autotune has been very good.  Zippers should have a base map that is very close since they sell 575 cams.  Use it then let the autotune do it's magic.  Then take the $350 and ride to Vegas. 
As far as timing, the base map should be close and as far as dyno tuning to get the timing better....well let's just say good luck finding someone with a dyno that's going to help with that.
Most of the guys in my area don't touch anything but the VE tables.  They would not have a clue where to start with the timing.
You paid for the Tmax autotune now save your $350 and trust it.  I trust mine more than the random dyno flunky.   

[Rio]

So you guys think a one piece push rod is the way to go?  I am not that mechanically inclined to know the difference.  I would assume an adjustable push rod may fall out of adjustment over time or not?  As far as the dyno tune, T-max does not have a canned map for my set up as of right now, but i'm sure by spring they will have a matched map for my bike, pipes, and 575 cam.  I understand they have been working with Rinehart to sell a Rinehart/Zippers performance package which would include the Rinehart Exhaust system, T-Max, and Zippers High Flow air intake.  The benefit of the dyno as i understand, is that motor is individual along with the tendacies of the rider.  A canned map has generic fuel flow ratio's ect.. and limitations based on the manufacturers published specifications.  Dynoing the bike with the assisitance of a Zippers technician will create a custom base map manipulating some of the factory specifications.  NOW, is this BS or not?  Me and a friend both had 07's, I had Rinehart true duals, and he ran a Kerker true dual.  We both had Redshift cams, and the T-max tuner, both with high flow air intake.  He went with the factory specs for the base map for his ECM, I had them dyno and adjust the factory specs on my bike.  I never rode his, but i let him ride mine and he was blown away on how my bike out performed his?  This is good stuff to talk about becasue it's supposed to fricking snow today!

[Rio]

This is the comment made from a guy that did some work to mine and a few friends bikes, unfortunately he was smart and got out of Michigan and moved to Florida.  Always has good candid advice;

I do not endorse dyno tuning for performance. I prefer using the dyno for drivability and mileage. It is crucial to remember that the Thundermax will auto tune 20% + - from base map. So "no" would be my advice on dyno tuning.
I think a set of woods camshafts or red shift cams would be my advice. The guys at woods are all about driveable horsepower. Red shift cams are great too but I feel they err on the conservative side a bit too much for me. That might be your best path.
Your stock engine (even at 110") has a reasonable limitation of around 115-120 horsepower.
The higher you go the less balanced and drivable your bike will be. That is the trade off. I know there are claims of over 130 horse on some sights but from my experiance those claims are tough to prove on two different dynos. There are ways to set a dyno off standard that can inflate hp numbers.
If you have a mechanic you are comfortable with, you should stay with him.

[VRODDAVE]

Let the autotune do its job. 

Tmax has tons of base maps that are likey close enough to allow a sucessfull autotune.