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Author Topic: Anyone know anything about the new Fullsac X pipe?  (Read 6643 times)

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Steve Cole

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Re: Anyone know anything about the new Fullsac X pipe?
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2012, 05:05:16 PM »

What I can say is that for the time being stay as far away from V&H as you can on a late model HD bikes. When confronted with there issues they came back and said we build our pipes for looks and sound! The fact that we pointed out they did not perform properly and told them why, they did not care about. Yes, you are correct in that they will all say ours is the best but take you time and go out and talk to people that really own them then make the best decision you can.
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Michael

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Re: Anyone know anything about the new Fullsac X pipe?
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2012, 05:30:47 PM »

Pipe will be here Thursday. Bike will be tuned the following Saturday.

If the quality is HALF as good as the Customer Service thus far, I'm sure I'll be pleased.

Steve was great during the decision process, answered all questions and messages promptly.

Doc confirmed all that Steve proposed and added additional insight as well.

Looking forward to Meeting Doc in FL...

Harley Dealer called today with my VIN #, bike is enroute.

STOKED!!!  :orange:


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« Last Edit: February 26, 2012, 07:03:40 PM by Michael »
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Smitty2u

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Re: Anyone know anything about the new Fullsac X pipe?
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2012, 07:01:12 PM »

What I can say is that for the time being stay as far away from V&H as you can on a late model HD bikes. When confronted with there issues they came back and said we build our pipes for looks and sound! The fact that we pointed out they did not perform properly and told them why, they did not care about. Yes, you are correct in that they will all say ours is the best but take you time and go out and talk to people that really own them then make the best decision you can.

Can you say what the issue is with V&H and late model HD bikes?  I have a build wrapping up and I've gone with their Power Dual Header pipe and Monster Round slipons.
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BUBBLEHEAD

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Re: Anyone know anything about the new Fullsac X pipe?
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2012, 07:17:04 PM »

Hey Steve.  So what is your best pipe for the 110 in a touring application? Looking for torque more than Hp. Which one of YOUR pipes produces the best seat of the pants grunt for a heavy bagger?
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glens

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Re: Anyone know anything about the new Fullsac X pipe?
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2012, 12:04:21 AM »

Can you say what the issue is with V&H and late model HD bikes?

Since this has been discussed openly for some time now I can answer for him that the O2 sensor bungs are not correct.
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Smitty2u

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Re: Anyone know anything about the new Fullsac X pipe?
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2012, 05:56:50 AM »

Since this has been discussed openly for some time now I can answer for him that the O2 sensor bungs are not correct.

So their placement of the 02 sensors will cause what kind of issue?
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willyB

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Re: Anyone know anything about the new Fullsac X pipe?
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2012, 08:21:45 AM »

I've been using the V & H true duals with V & H Hi-output slipons combined with the Powercommander PCV (Note! PC does not use O2 sensors). After 14,000 miles, including a 4,000 miles trip to Yellowstone, I appear to be have no problems at all.

So my question would be: If the V & H O2 sensor locations and/or usage is important why is my combo working? Also, what would I gain from using a prpoer O2 sensor setup?

It should be noted that I know nothing. I just added what I had used in the past and went from there.
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HOGMIKE

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Re: Anyone know anything about the new Fullsac X pipe?
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2012, 10:07:32 AM »

I've been using the V & H true duals with V & H Hi-output slipons combined with the Powercommander PCV (Note! PC does not use O2 sensors). After 14,000 miles, including a 4,000 miles trip to Yellowstone, I appear to be have no problems at all.

So my question would be: If the V & H O2 sensor locations and/or usage is important why is my combo working? Also, what would I gain from using a prpoer O2 sensor setup?

It should be noted that I know nothing. I just added what I had used in the past and went from there.

You are not using the 02 sensors. Your bike runs fine. If this works for you, why change?
I have 3 bikes with carbs, and they run fine also.
A "PROPER" 02 setup will give you closer optimized fuel burn under most all conditions (weather, bad fuel, altitude, etc.) and probably better mileage to boot!
With no 02 sensors, you are going backwards and may as well use a carb.
Why does the factory use the 02 systems? Not all because of emissions. Some of it is drive-ability. It's called "progress"!
JMHO, of course.
 8)
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Re: Anyone know anything about the new Fullsac X pipe?
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2012, 09:58:34 PM »

What is the difference between the New Fullsac "C" pipe and the Fuel Moto Header Pipe.

Is there a claim that the Fullsac is a better designed pipe or constructed better?

Its hard to follow the claims people make and the facts.

Happy Riding

Bryan
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FLSTFI Dave

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Re: Anyone know anything about the new Fullsac X pipe?
« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2012, 07:09:14 AM »

What is the difference between the New Fullsac "C" pipe and the Fuel Moto Header Pipe.

Is there a claim that the Fullsac is a better designed pipe or constructed better?

Its hard to follow the claims people make and the facts.

Happy Riding

Bryan
I put the Fullsac on my wifes new Street Glide in Late December and the Fuel Moto on mine the same day.  The build quality of both pipes was pretty much the same, the fuel moto felt a little lighter.  The fullsac was easier to fit on to the bike.  The heat shield that cover where the pipes make the x fit better on the Fullsac pipe.  A friend who has two bikes, and who is also running one fullsac and one fuel moto head pipe noticed the same thing I did.

Not sure if there is any difference in performance as you would have to test both head pipes on the same bike.
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YPGuy

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Re: Anyone know anything about the new Fullsac X pipe?
« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2012, 08:59:35 AM »

Thanks for the information.

Bryan
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glens

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Re: Anyone know anything about the new Fullsac X pipe?
« Reply #26 on: February 28, 2012, 12:31:07 PM »

So their placement of the 02 sensors will cause what kind of issue?


If you want to get your ECM proper feedback from the O2 sensors, and they're not located in a proper place in the pipe and/or the mount doesn't place the sensor properly into the exhaust stream, how do you expect the ECM to know this and to compensate for the problem?  It can't and won't, and while it's assuming the sensor signals are good ones, it'll use them to control the fuel while closed-loop.  Guess what happens?  Poor action based upon faulty information.

A simple test is to clear/reset the AFVs in the ECM.  The "tune"/"rideability" should be very close to the same both before and after that action.  If it's not, either the tune wasn't right to begin with or the O2 sensors aren't working properly because they can't.
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Dead_Reckoning

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Re: Anyone know anything about the new Fullsac X pipe?
« Reply #27 on: February 28, 2012, 01:27:47 PM »

Stepped or not stepped is a matter of the build components. As far as who did it first I think that Cycle Shack and HD did it long before anyone else, so if your worried about who copied who, better look to those that did it first. Better yet, look to see who is building them right as that should really be at the top of your list for it to work right in your application.

I have found this to be and interesting Read. Granted it is wrtten by a vendor, RB Racing, but still and interesting read.

I think of the X-pipe as more like and eductor/extractor.
When the cyclinder fired, it pushes exhaust gas out the header, when that gas reaches the void space in the X, it changes pressure to velocity as low pressure on the other side of the path. That will/should create a vacuum in the Exhaust header of the cylinder that is about to fire, thus improving the exhaust flow/take away.

It's not a new concept, I have seen antique Hot Rods with offenhauser exhaust manifolds. The Middle 2 cylinders on each bank shared a slightly larger header.

Harley Exhaust System Design
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/exhausttech.htm

Excerpts

To keep this simple, it just means cooler is slower. Those really long fat pipes you see are decellerating the exhaust as they head out past the rear wheel.

Keeping things simple, this is summed up as “the larger the tube, the lower the speeds”. For the expanding, hot gases a slower speed means a higher pressure and, conversely, a higher speed is a lower pressure

Generally we want a lower pressure and a higher speed in the exhaust. Having a highly negative pressure in the exhaust during the overlap period when both inlet and exhaust valves are open, is the key to making power

The primary tube size will go up in relation to engine size. The size of the tube should be slightly larger that the exhaust port area which, in itself, will most likely be “D-shaped”. The “D-shape” flattens out the floor to the port to increase the flow on the “short” side or floor of the port. Having the tube size much larger than this “slightly larger” is no benefit whatsoever. Simply put, an increase of of 1/4” in diameter will shift the rpm band up about 600 rpm for the same size engine.


Decisions as to what tube size to choose aren’t very scientific but are based on experience. We can sum this up in Twin Cam terms: 88”, 95”, and even 103" motors should use 1 3/4” primary tubes. If the engine is a 103” TC88 you have a choice between the 1 3/4” and the 2” designs. The decision for the 103” rests with your intentions and the design of your engine. The 103" motors generally do not make much power, are limited by valve size and reside in a heavy 800 lb sled. In general, stay with the 1 3/4" design. Now there are 110", 113" engines that are focused on horsepower with inlet valves 2.100" or larger and with 200lbs of cold cranking pressure or more and big cams. In this case a 2" primary tube design is called for.

Length and diameter is an issue. To put it simply, longer, smaller primary tubes for lower rpm, and shorter, fatter tubes for higher rpm. In the case of engine displacement a smaller engine requires smaller primary tubes and a larger engine requires larger primary tubes. Putting too large a primary tube on an engine will shift the torque up the rpm scale. It all has to do with the length and volumes of the tubes.

Heat is power and loss of heat means a loss in velocity. People make all sorts of claims about wrapping headers in thermal wrap, applying ceramic coatings both inside and out and the heat retention properties of stainless versus mild steel tubing. Let's get real about this issue...You aren't going to measure the difference between chrome and ceramic coatings and it really boils down to a question of aesthetics and practicality

For Harleys you should ponder this...Stepped headers are not for low speed or part throttle operation, which are exactly the regions you spend most of your time in. The "cone shape" will cause the scavenging wave to be stronger and narrower . This can aid peak rpm hp numbers but other numbers will suffer.


What I happen to like about the X-Pipe is that to me it looks the closest to the OEM HD Exhaust and uses the the HD OEM Heat Shields.
The Jackpot version does state that it can use HD Heat Shields, thw Vance & Hines "Power Dual" doesn't keep the HD Lines to me and the Wegner Manifol just looks Fugly to me.

So, once again back to your own personnal preferences.

Cheers
DR :)
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Smitty2u

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Re: Anyone know anything about the new Fullsac X pipe?
« Reply #28 on: February 28, 2012, 02:21:09 PM »

If you want to get your ECM proper feedback from the O2 sensors, and they're not located in a proper place in the pipe and/or the mount doesn't place the sensor properly into the exhaust stream, how do you expect the ECM to know this and to compensate for the problem?  It can't and won't, and while it's assuming the sensor signals are good ones, it'll use them to control the fuel while closed-loop.  Guess what happens?  Poor action based upon faulty information.

A simple test is to clear/reset the AFVs in the ECM.  The "tune"/"rideability" should be very close to the same both before and after that action.  If it's not, either the tune wasn't right to begin with or the O2 sensors aren't working properly because they can't.

So is the consensus that all V&H pipes, even current production, have poor placement of the O2 sensor? 
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glens

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Re: Anyone know anything about the new Fullsac X pipe?
« Reply #29 on: February 28, 2012, 04:10:47 PM »

The second-hand (at best) evidence I've encountered is that they don't care whether the O2 sensors work well where/how they put them because they're selling pipes as fast as they can make them.  Obviously this only applies to their pipes which have been made after '06 (and for post-'06 bikes).  I've seen reference being made to their stance on this being iterated as recently as the recent v-twin expo in Cincy.
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