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[aclass]

Hopefully this isn't a stupid question as I'm no expert on tuning and tuners, but I've often wondered why you cant find an experienced tuner that offer generic tunes that will work well with the general intake/exhaust mods that everyone does to their bike and even with cam upgrades.

I have a powerstroke diesel and a Shelby Mustang and there is a plethora of opportunities to pay someone for a tune that can be emailed and then downloaded to your ECM.

Why is that? 

[grc]

Hopefully this isn't a stupid question as I'm no expert on tuning and tuners, but I've often wondered why you cant find an experienced tuner that offer generic tunes that will work well with the general intake/exhaust mods that everyone does to their bike and even with cam upgrades.

I have a powerstroke diesel and a Shelby Mustang and there is a plethora of opportunities to pay someone for a tune that can be emailed and then downloaded to your ECM.

Why is that? 

If what you are looking for is a "canned map", then there are places that offer those for your Harley.  Power Commander has offered them for ages, and several other companies that sell the devices also offer maps.  Depending on many factors, you may or may not get great results however.  Of course you can say the same thing with many of the so-called dyno tuners selling their wares.  Just because someone has a dyno doesn't automatically mean they are a fully qualified tuner.  Just go by many Harley dealerships if you need evidence to support that statement. 

Btw, just because you can buy a map for your four wheeled vehicle over the internet and have it emailed to you doesn't mean those maps are necessarily all that great either.  You pays your money and you takes your chances, as they say.

Jerry

[Doc 1]

Just to add what Jerry said, the maps you get for you truck or car don't have to be made or finger printed so perfect for your vehicle because the auto industry has and uses a MASS AIR FLOW SENSOR. You get a map for your car, install it and then let the Mass Air Flow sensor dial in the VE tables for you. Since there is no MAF sensor on a Harley the tuner, (dyno operator), becomes the MAF sensor by adjusting the VE tables so the ECM can deliver the correct air fuel ratio.......the better the tuner and tuning software the better the map will be. Since each cylinder breathes differently on a Harley, every motor breathes differently so a map must be made for each motor even though they might have the same performance parts. Then and only then will a Harley purr like it should.
Doc

[aclass]

Good info there, I like learning.   Thanks doc.

[FlaHeatWave]

There are a lot of really good "canned" maps out there.
'Have a FuelMoto Power Commander 3 in the '05 SEEG and had a V&H FuelPak in the '09 SERG and both were spot on imo.

I don't know how far I can go here as far as posting rules pertaining to different vendors, that's what PMs are for...

[hrdtail78]

IMO Canned maps are marketing hype only.  Along with what has been said above about different air flow through front and rear cylinders.  Look at injectors.  Since Harley's can tune each cylinder separately.  No need for match injectors.  I have had customers tell me how close there Map was and how good there bikes run until they get a full tune.  Then they really know how it is suppose to run.

No 2 bikes are the same.  Even starting with the same starter cal in the same stage 2 combo.  Each one is different.  I blame this on injectors.

[JustDennis]

I have used multiple tuners and as others have said here, most of them provide "canned" or "starter" maps.  SEPRO, TTS, PCV, PV.  Many systems now allow you to take those starter maps and then do some autotuning yourself to set the VE values to make how your engine "breathers".  Once you do that, you can have very good success.  The device I prefer to use is the DynoJet Power Vision.  I have used it on my 2008 EG and my 2010 SESG.  On my 2008, I tuned starting with a base map from Fuel Moto and also with one from DynoJet.  Both maps provided excellent performance, mpg and cooling once I autotuned them to match my bike.  Went on to tweak them to perform exactly how I wanted.  I tuned using the stock O2 (narrow band) sensors and also using the WB DynoJet Autotune kit.  

Many of these tuners, starting with a "canned" map and autotune provide excellent results if you are willing to invest some time.  Give it a go

[hrdtail78]

Thanks for the ad. That's how they all work. Starter cal, map VE's, then tune. Let us not even begin how vision got their starter maps.

[Buckeye_Tuning]

Or... surprise!... how it CAN lock out the digital technician and EVERY OTHER TUNER from altering whether or not closed loop is available.  If it is locked with a PV, only a PV can unlock that function.

[FlaHeatWave]

aclass,
'Spoke with my Tech today about your street tuner, he told me that he never uses the street tuner (so he dosen't have a "library" of maps), just the race tuner. He said that since you have the software disc, that you have all the maps that he does. We tried...

[tweeter13]

If you talk to a "GOOD" automotive tuner they do have lots of "canned" maps but that just gets them close with out them using the Zero setting because that may be damaging to the engine to use.   But they still tuned the engine to get the most of what they can out of it.  That's what most good ones do.  No use just selling you a canned map and sending you out the door with a piece of paper with a pretty graph.  When you could have just bought it and downloaded it with,your lap top and did it your self then.  That's why you use the dyno do to the speeds that are hit during the runs.  You don't want to do them on public roads.  Once you have a good tune done you really don't have to do it again unless you change something. 

[hrdtail78]

Or... surprise!... how it CAN lock out the digital technician and EVERY OTHER TUNER from altering whether or not closed loop is available.  If it is locked with a PV, only a PV can unlock that function.

That is certainly something they forgot to mention. Seems guys that sit around picking these tuning devices apart with no bike to tune would be all over this.

[Buckeye_Tuning]

There are a couple reasons I don't like to pass on maps to members.  I have found that no two bikes are alike, and have seen some really weird crap happen with basically the same bikes.  There can be a BIG difference sometimes.

I do NOT wish to be in any way responsible for hurting a members bike.  I may help out with some tweaking, but in those instances... the owner is already v-tuning, etc and is accepting the risks.. AND... will be primed to listen to the crap that I say to NOT do.

I am thinking the BIGGEST difference between cars and our bikes is the intake tract.  On a Mustang, Z06, etc.  ( I HAVE used mail order tunes with my old Z06)... these ar all V8 engines or similar.  They ar NOT v-twins.  The REALLY are not an odd fire 90* v-twin with a SHARED INTAKE TRACT.

On a Harley, the manifold is a few inches long and it is common to both cylinders.  On our bikes, especially at high speeds the cylinders will swap spit between them.  Even though the injectors are sequential, fuel squirted from the front WILL be used on the rear.  Visa-Verse.

On a car?  There is an even firing order, NOT one 135* out (famous Harley Sound).  Secondly, and more important is there is a plenum with runners and a sequential EFI systems.  Some runners will be over 6" long, so fuel from #1 cylinder would have to travel well over 12" to reach ANY other cylinder.  This difference is HUGE.

We have what are called base maps.  Some tuning companies have a handful of these 'starter maps' knowing that tuning WILL take place to dial it in.  Some tuners have a good amount of starter calibrations.  Sometimes folks load the starter cals and kind of luck out, feel they are 'good' and leave it be.  Then there is one company that puts out a ton of maps for everyone to try.  This can make it easier for a DIYer to start off with tuning.  NONE are meant to be installed and left alone.

Our bikes are very very archaic and old tech.  They layered EFI onto an 100 year old design.  Cars?  Like muscle cars?  Those engines have been designed with EFI in mind from the jump.

The smallest difference in ACs or exhaust makes a BIG difference in the final tune.  With the weird firing order, a thing called reversion rears its head all the time.  This reversion starts with the pipes and ends up on the OUTSIDE of the Air Cleaner. One should NOT simply install a generic email tune.

On our bikes, there IS a phenomenon called 'fuel stand off'.  This is raw fuel being pushed OUT of the throttle body into the air next to your leg.

NO ONE does email tunes for these bikes.  Every single map given out is to 'try' and the expectation is you WILL tune it up after installing the map.

[Buckeye_Tuning]

Yes.  I had a customer that switched from PV to TTS for me to tune.  I just loaded my TTS tune on top of the PV tune in the bike, and even saved that PV tune as my MTE and into the dongle itself.

The bike simply refused to v-tune at all, no matter what TTS calibration I tried, etc.  SO, I loaded the MTE back into the bike and loaded a DIrect Link map into the bike.  Same thing... I tried to use the Direct LInk with the NArrow Bands and it refused to work.  (yes, I spent some extra money, but my original expectation when buying my dyno was to LEARN, and report to member whatever I find... good ... bad... indifferent... and the price of the DL tuning key, was part of that cost).

Turns out that TTS, SEPST, etc use what AFR as the 'switch' to turn on or off closed loop.  Without closed loop operational, tuning with narrow bands can NOT occur.  So you know, when we switch our fuel table to 14.6 AFR or .981 Lambda, etc, those numbers are REALLY an internal 'switch' that says we are going to use closed loop operation.

PV does all of this differently.  PV turns off closed loop by turning off the AFVs.  WIthout AFVs, no closed loop.  End result is the same, but if one doesn't know if a tune in a bike has that turned off, you HAVE to have the original tune that was sucked into the PV unit.  Once the AFVs are toggled off, NO OTHER TUNER, or even the dealer can turn back on the AFVs.

No biggie for the most part.  I HAD the PV that was married to the bike, and the original tune WAS in there.  I loaded THAT map, and then saved that MOCO tune file as my MTE and all worked fine.

Everyone bitches about a dealer cannot get into the ECM of a bike tuned with TTS.  For the most part, that is NOT true.  Only real thing locked out is reprogramming the whole ECM back to stock, or marry a new TSM/TSSM to the bike.  To do those two things, one needs to place a TTS tuned back to the MTE calibration.

Well, this is very similar in nature.  If someone wished to get their PV tuned bike tuned.. say on a dyno and the dealer or indy tuner wants to use a TTS or SEPST to do that tuning with?  They better damn have available the PV box and PRAY that the owner/tuner placed the original MOCO part number in it.  Just like TTS users, presently with blue dongles, the PV self stores the MTEs.  WHat happens if the 'tuner' did not save that MTE file somewhere NOT in the PV?  If the PV breaks or is stolen, one IS screwed.

All of these tuning devices have quirks, I am fast discovering.  I do NOT think any of this a big deal.  Users of ALL tuning devices need to back their crap up in a few places...  our normal recommendations to ALL customers.  DIYers need to take note... save those stock files off board the device when using a PV.  Ig getting a tune by a shop?  No matter WHAT device is used, do NOT wait and see if they will give up a copy of the tune, along with the original tune, find another tuner.  ASKING before a tune will tell ya if you wish to use the tuning shop or not.