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[AUSSIE_FLSTFSE]

I have a SERT and am not real happy with it. This is only due to the fact that the closest stealer that tunes them it 60 miles away & their tuning skills are questionable. I had it on the dyno about 6 months ago & it took them about 5 hours. But I don't believe it is tuned to its full potential. I have a local tuner who is very good with Power Commanders & I was thinking of running a PCIII over the top of my SERT. My question is has any one done this? Is there any thing wrong with doing this? Should I expect to gain fom this.
PS: it starts great cold but not so good when hot & uses a fair bit of fuel

Cheers
Aussie

[Twolanerider]

The Power Commander makes its changes from whatever base map is underneath it.  So the previous changes made the Race Tuner would only be just that; the previous changes (that the Power Commander would adjust from).

FWIW, I've never really understood the religious affiliation often shared to either device.  It's not like any one of us actually tune (terribly effectively) the things ourselves.  Find the closest GOOD tuner you can, ask which one he likes, and let him do it.  We pay that guy (whomever he or she might be) to do that work for us.  Might as well give him the tool he can do it best with.

[AUSSIE_FLSTFSE]

Twolane,
Thats pretty much what I thought, its not that I regret buying the SERT as I do believe they are a very good product. But in my case not having a competent SERT tuner available I feel I am probably better off switching to the PCIII & a very experienced (local) tuner to give me an overall better result.

Cheers
Aussie

[Bagger]

The Power Commander makes its changes from whatever base map is underneath it.  So the previous changes made the Race Tuner would only be just that; the previous changes (that the Power Commander would adjust from).

FWIW, I've never really understood the religious affiliation often shared to either device.  It's not like any one of us actually tune (terribly effectively) the things ourselves.  Find the closest GOOD tuner you can, ask which one he likes, and let him do it.  We pay that guy (whomever he or she might be) to do that work for us.  Might as well give him the tool he can do it best with.

I think you nailed it 2lane.  I've had both.  I've had great experiences with SERT, and not so great with PC.  My SERT was tuned by a highly competent technician, and the bike ran like a dream.  The PC was tuned by me using my butt dynomometer, and ended up throwing codes.  Bottom line, whatever one uses (SERT, PC, Techlusion, whatever) doesn't really matter.  What matters is the compentence of the tuner.  

[geezerglide]

Aussie,

Your questionable tuner is 60 Miles away. I rode my bike 600 miles one way to JARZ Performance in Abbotsford British Columbia to have my new build (Jims 120) tuned and dynod, and then drove home 600 miles the next day.

I met Roger from Bellingham, we went for lunch came back and watched them perform their magic.

They had to basically remap the SERT as their was no MAP for my combination. We used a Base Map fro a 103 and went from there.

The tuning and dyno took approximately 6 hours. However after that the bike performed fantastic, both in the city and on the highway. I still get 45 - 48 mpg. Since then I have put apprx. 10,000 trouble free miles.

The first dyno run in the morning was 118 hp and 120 TQ. Changed the stock TB to a 57mm Kuraykyn TB c/e DTT 6.33 injector and after extensive tuning and dyno runs in the end we had 131 HP and 134 TQ.

That is what a competent and experienced tuner can do with any of the various systems out there.

geezerglide

[MJZ]

The Power Commander makes its changes from whatever base map is underneath it.  So the previous changes made the Race Tuner would only be just that; the previous changes (that the Power Commander would adjust from).

FWIW, I've never really understood the religious affiliation often shared to either device.  It's not like any one of us actually tune (terribly effectively) the things ourselves.  Find the closest GOOD tuner you can, ask which one he likes, and let him do it.  We pay that guy (whomever he or she might be) to do that work for us.  Might as well give him the tool he can do it best with.

BINGO! [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif] Just did that, as you know I had Golden do a PCIII just a couple of months ago and was very happy with the results. Just took my bike in for some more goodies and my local tuner is much more comfortable w/ the SERT. So I removed the PCIII, offered out here and the first one that PMed me just got a 2 month old Christmas present and I am very glad someone will get enjoyment out of it rather than sit in my ever-expanding H-D storeroom. Oh, I ramble, the point is, it didn't matter to me which one was on my bike but the closest tuner I have alot of faith in likes SERT's and to me a good tuner is priority one.

[Ironhorse]

I may be out of line for suggesting this, and there was a time when I never thought I would, but have you considered the Zippers with Auto Tune? Trust me, I know it's expensive. You need their ECM, their Auto-Tune kit, and a couple of bungs welded in. However, with a close base map, it is self tuning. If I took all the money I spent on tuning, it comes out even. Actually, in my case, way ahead. Over the years I have bought PCs, SERT, TFI, DFO, and a Terry unit. You can sell your PC or SERT and the OEM ECM to make up some money.

Just something else to consider.

[Twolanerider]

I may be out of line for suggesting this, and there was a time when I never thought I would, but have you considered the Zippers with Auto Tune? Trust me, I know it's expensive. You need their ECM, their Auto-Tune kit, and a couple of bungs welded in. However, with a close base map, it is self tuning. If I took all the money I spent on tuning, it comes out even. Actually, in my case, way ahead. Over the years I have bought PCs, SERT, TFI, DFO, and a Terry unit. You can sell your PC or SERT and the OEM ECM to make up some money.

Just something else to consider.

IH, for conversely the same reasons I would not use the Zippers ECM without the Autotune additions I am becoming more and more of a fun of the Zippers Thundermax ECM with it.  We all know how difficult it can be to find a truly good tuner for the SERT or Power Commander.  And those are the rosetta stones; the silly things are everywhere.  But there are still very few actually talented hands to really effectively tune them.

There is (hardly) no one outside of Zippers to tune the Thundermax.  I don't care how "close" a base map is no two bikes are the same enough that you're really maximizing the efforts that can come from the money you've spent for the upgrades you've done.  But then comes the autotune addition.  

A nice close base map gets you started and, from there, the bike effectively tunes itself; all the time, in any ambient conditions and you never have to visit the dyno ever again (unless you're just curious).  Change pipes.  No need to re-dyno.  Change breathers and mufflers.  No need to re-dyno.  Do anything really short of pretty extreme changes and just let the bike fend for itself.  That's actually pretty sweet.

[hd-dude]

AK has the PCIII over the RT on his SEEG. He had a canned RT map for SE slip ons and breather (stage one download) When I did the FCC cams in his bike I had a good map for the PCIII and we decided to put the PCIII in and use the map....bike runs great!

[Ironhorse]

There is (hardly) no one outside of Zippers to tune the Thundermax.  I don't care how "close" a base map is no two bikes are the same enough that you're really maximizing the efforts that can come from the money you've spent for the upgrades you've done.  But then comes the autotune addition.

I should have added that caveat to my posting, because I was in the same boat. Actually, worse off.

Most folks here may recall I started out with the Zippers M&M conversion kit. Their base map may have been close, but not anywhere near rideable for my build. So I took it to someone who knew the Thunder-Max software but didn't have a dyno. His tune got it to run better, but the mpgs were horrible. I asked Zippers about an M&M AutoTune. They said it "was developed" but would not be available for sale for another year. So I bought a DTT WEGOII system and started logging my rides. Then I e-mailed the logged data to Zippers for them to read and do a MAP adjustment. After half a month of tuning in the blind, long distance, via e-mail, I got fed up. I was getting ready to yank everything back off and send it back for a full refund. Then someone on Harley Tech Talk showed me a sub wiring harness that allows the OEM M&M FI system to adapt to Delphi. I bought it and converted the bike over to Delphi. Then I bought the Auto-Tune, and finally things started working.

So to sum up this ranting manifesto, the Zippers T-Max alone may bring just as many tuning issues as the PC/SERT. However, with the Closed Loop Auto-Tune feature, it is great. Make any changes to the engine, and the system adjusts. And that's where you will save money, in the additional dyno tune time and costs.

[Boatman]

If you don't have anyone to rely on, the Zippers with the Autotune would be my choice.

[sadunbar]

I should have added that caveat to my posting, because I was in the same boat. Actually, worse off.

Most folks here may recall I started out with the Zippers M&M conversion kit. Their base map may have been close, but not anywhere near rideable for my build. So I took it to someone who knew the Thunder-Max software but didn't have a dyno. His tune got it to run better, but the mpgs were horrible. I asked Zippers about an M&M AutoTune. They said it "was developed" but would not be available for sale for another year. So I bought a DTT WEGOII system and started logging my rides. Then I e-mailed the logged data to Zippers for them to read and do a MAP adjustment. After half a month of tuning in the blind, long distance, via e-mail, I got fed up. I was getting ready to yank everything back off and send it back for a full refund. Then someone on Harley Tech Talk showed me a sub wiring harness that allows the OEM M&M FI system to adapt to Delphi. I bought it and converted the bike over to Delphi. Then I bought the Auto-Tune, and finally things started working.

So to sum up this ranting manifesto, the Zippers T-Max alone may bring just as many tuning issues as the PC/SERT. However, with the Closed Loop Auto-Tune feature, it is great. Make any changes to the engine, and the system adjusts. And that's where you will save money, in the additional dyno tune time and costs.

And that in a nutshell is the summary of why I chose to install ThunderMax with Autotune.  IMO - with any system, PC, SERT, ThunderMax w/o Autotune, you are at the mercy of the skills of the tuner.  If Autotune works as advertised and as attested to by other members, it removes the wildcard of the tuner.  The only PC I ever had on previous bikes that was tuned properly (performance, economy, rideability), was tuned by Speed Hanson of Speeds Performance.  Problem is I am nowhere close to him.  I have had several local HD shops try and tune a PC with poor results across the board.  Unless you have access to someone who has proven to you they have the skills, you are likely to be disappointed with the results.  I can't wait to get some weather that will let me test my theory...

Scott