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[Trapperdog]

What is the AVAILABLE Wattage on an '07 SE Ultra assuming normal operation at 3K RPM's, with low beam on and excluding radio, heated seat and grips, passing lamps etc? Below I believe I've sourced Total wattage produced however I've not found anything stating Available wattage.
I'm planning on the addition of 2 - 65 W, ea, 6000 Lumen ea dimmable LED lamps and may need to calculate accessory Watt usage when the lamps are on full power. Part of my concern is I often run at night in winter, with heated gear, seat and grips on as well as a 300W  HawgWired Wired amp.  I can shut the radio down and blue tooth various ways if needed though. Normal operation has these lamps at 1/3 power, about 20W ea, Which is of little concern. However, consuming 130W  total on full power and the additional consumption of other accessories worries me.
We have these lamps on two of our other bikes, one with nominal available Watts which required the addition of a headlight cutout switch (one of two) and an LED volt meter to monitor charging when on full with other high draw accessories in use, at lower RPM's.

Also, are our HD R&R's shunt or series type?

Thanks


Electric
Battery (per Battery Council
International Rating)
Sealed, maintenance-free, 12V,
28-amp/hour, 270 cca
Charging Three-phase, 50-amp system
(585W @ 13V, 2000 rpm, 650W max power @ 13V)
Starting 1.4 kW electric with solenoid shift starter
motor engagement
Lights (as per country regulation):
- Headlamp (dual bulb halogen)
- Passing Lamps
- Tail/Stop Lights
- Turn Signal Lights
- Indicator Lamps
55-watt low beam, 35-watt high beam
Sealed beam, two @ 27W each
(except where prohibited by law)
8W/28W (5W/21W)
28W (21W) self-canceling
High beam, neutral, low oil pressure,
engine diagnostics, turn signals, low fuel
warnings, cruise control, battery, security
system,6 6-speed

[Para Bellum]

Check this chart http://s7d1.scene7.com/s7/uviewer.jsp?asset=HarleyDavidson/29900028HighOutputChargingSystem%20image&config=HarleyDavidson/Universal_Zoom1, which is part of the HD catalog for the High Output Charging System http://www.harley-davidson.com/store/high-output-charging-system?cm_sp=Monetate-_-Endcaps-_-PAC+PDP+Bottom.

It looks like about 47 amps output at 3k rpm, so 47 amps x 13 volts (approximate) = 611 watts.  From your post, even though HD calls it a 50 amp system (Charging Three-phase, 50-amp system) and says it will have 650 watts (585W @ 13V, 2000 rpm, 650W max power @ 13V), that graph shows it maxes at 49 amps (= 637 watts), falling short of 50 (650 W).  Of course, that's at 4k rpm, so really not feasible.

Too much demand on the charging system will burn out the voltage regulator and the stator, leaving you with an expensive repair and the need to limp home on just the juice stored in the battery---and that doesn't go far, and neither will you, on our bikes.  The only indication you might get is the bike's voltage meter, which will drop from normal (~14 volts) to battery voltage (~12 V), and then head down as the battery is drained.  Then the bike goes hot, dark, and quiet--in the fast lane at rush hour, or in the middle of nowhere.  It would be real fun to have the lights go out and the engine die on a cold night, on a curvy back road, in the dark.

While it's true you aren't always using the max wattage of the HW amp or the heated gear or the lights, the charging system isn't always putting out its max either.  So it's very difficult to say what the "available" wattage is that's over and above what you are using.  I've burnt out the charging system on two different baggers by running full heated gear for 2 people.  A volt meter might help somewhat, but to monitor the critical item, you would need an ammeter (measures amps being drawn), AND you would still need to know the charging system's output--which varies by rpm, and which I haven't memorized.  And I don't think I can remember to free-rev the engine every time I need to flash my high-beams or hit the brakes.   

What's an R&R?

[grc]

As noted above, an ammeter would be a good addition as opposed to the mostly useless voltmeter on the bike.  It will quickly alert you to negative current flow, before you overload the system and possibly kill the battery.  Back when cars came with real gauges that actually told you something useful, an ammeter was the electrical gauge of choice, not a voltmeter.

Since it's difficult at best to determine actual current draw by just adding up numbers from generic charts (good for rough estimation only), and the charging system may also vary from published specs, doing an actual total draw test with everything you normally run operating might be a good idea as well as a full output test of the charging system.  A good shop should have the equipment necessary.  It's best to deal with actual facts if you plan to push the system to the limit.

JMHO - Jerry

[Trapperdog]

Thanks for the replies guys.
An R&R is the Regulator/Rectifier. Shunt type, depending on who you ask , either shunts excess current back to the Stator or pulsates excesses current to ground and has to match the worst case scenario load delta. Series type can adsorb excess current and dissipate it as heat saving the last Stator phase from overloading.  Shunt type are better for more consistent loads whereas Series type are better for a greater variable load. Subjective and my understanding.
Many of my bikes haven't had a generous charging system so related forum folks have tested and posted real time watt availability as a base line for those of us adding multipul high load electronics. Although helpful, most online calculations use 13V rather than the 14.xxV produced at running RPM's, not sure why.
Although the old time Ammeter would be ideal, I've been using added onboard digital Datel Volt meters, which I plan to add on the HD. I can't see the oem meter at night and the Datel is very noticible and fun to watch while switching various electronics on and off. Although not completely accurate, when a baseline is created with a Fluke or such, it's easy to tell when you've crossed under acceptable charging limits or when there's issues with the charging or storage systems.
In the ADV bike world, we are constantly pushing the charging system to its limits with multipul electrical additions.  It's all fairly simple once electronics are installed and monitored. I was just hoping to have a baseline to work with and do my own calculations from there to see where my margins lay.

[dayne66]

Just a tidbit of anecdotal info.....With the factory dual halogen headlight on low, radio volume at about 1/3 playing from i-Pod, heat demons on low, and heated jacket on about 1/2. I got home from an hour long ride and plugged in the battery tender......took just under 20 minutes to indicate fully charged. I then changed out the headlight for an LED. I then went for a ride to Coombs to get some Baconaise....mmmm Baconaise....about an hour total.....with the headlight on low, heated jacket, Heat demons and radio controls as before....Oh ya.....and I was charging my phone....when I got home I took off my gloves and plugged in the tender....took off helmet, jackets and pants....3 minutes at most....and the tender was already indicating fully charged.
It would seem that changing out the headlight(s) will leave some extra available wattage.
 

[Trapperdog]

I think the best way to check a static battery for no load Volts is with a meter. I wonder at what Volts individual tenders cycle on and off?
Late Dec of '14 I rode for several days and quite a few hours in the dark with temps in the low teens to mid twenties. High beams and passing lamps on, 300W HawgWired amp blasting, Corben heated seat on low, heated grips, liner and gloves on full, nominal 550 GPS and phone charger on and had zero issues. In retrospect it would have been interesting to put a meter to the battery after it rested though.
Any idleing or stop and go with a good load will draw down the battery or overtax the charging system as the stator produces less AC current with RPM drop.  Easy to see with a handheld meter on the battery, bike idleing but stationary, turning on different gear and and higher draw accessories.

[Trapperdog]

Well I ended up utilizing the new aux lamps in place of the passing lamps with some creative mounting accessories and Jim at Metal Dragons wiring expertise installation. With the loss of the projected 27w ea passing lamps and the addition of two 60w lamps, the additional load on the system would be apx 66w. Having installed an onboard digital volt meter allowed easier monitoring of the charging system.
Running at speed with all accessories off, volt meter read a constant 14.3-14.4.
With both 60w acc lights on full (they are dimmable), high beam on, Corben solo heated seat on low, heated grips on  high, heated liner on high, head unit with 300w amp on high enough to hear at 75mph, and nominal GPS on, volt meter read 13.4, well above the charging break even point of 12.6.  As expected, at idle the voltage fell below 12.6 but easily rectified by dimming of shutting off the aux lights. Although I've only run a few hundred miles since the addition, it seems I still have a healthy charging system even at 96K miles
Although these numbers are not absolute as I've not done a visual calibration of the digital meter against my handheld Fluke meter, both major and minor voltage irregularities are now easily detected and monitored