Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Fullsac Performance]

Agreed Timo...... V&H did ''BS'' Owl and mislead him to boot. The people who remove Closed Loop are the same people that took out electronic ignitions and reinstall points (back in the day). 02 Sensors are your friend and they will maintain the tune, if the tune is done correct.
Doc

X3   

[willyB]

Hmmmm, 22,000+ miles on my Street Glide and another 35,000+ miles on my Deuce with PowerCommander (no O2 sensors). It must not work very good at all to have nearly 60,000 miles without one single issue.

So far I've been able to ride issue free in MO, IL, IA, NE, SD, ND, WY, CO, KS, AR, MN, TN, KY, MS, FL, WI, KY, IN, NC, OH, GA, SC, WV... I guess I must have just got lucky with gas in all those 23 states? 

Call it what you want but my no O2 sensor bike seems to perform better than my $32,000 Harley. (Compensators, lifters, stereo, etc, etc..)

[Midnight Rider]

There are a lot of "old school" tuners out there who still insist on defeating the newer closed loop systems.  There is no VALID reason to do so, IF the tuner knows what he is doing.  Nobody is saying that the bike won't run well in open loop all the time, but to do so has just defeated then entire purpose of the expensive Delphi ECM and associated components, which you paid good money for and function perfectly when allowed to operate.  Again...with a competent tuner doing the tuning.

But it's your bike, so do what you want to it.

The V&H Fuelpak is one of the most crude, outdated, and useless devices still on the market.  Frankly, I'm surprised it's still on the market, but there are still people who buy the BS V&H is telling them.  You might as well have a carburetor and be changing out jets, like we did in the 50's, 60's, and 70's.  To compare the Fuelpak to a device like the TTS, SE Pro Race Tuner, or the newer tuners from Dynojet is like comparing the ignition/fuel management system of a 68 Buick to that of a 2013 auto of any make.

But again, it's your bike...

[willyB]

Maybe here's a better decision tree?

Research all of the tuners in your area to see what they know how to tune and then research their "actual" ability to be able to do what they say they can do. Then check all the tuning shops in your riding area to see who can fix your tuner while your out riding on a Saturday or Sunday.

As Invalid, Crude, Outdated or Useless as my PowerCommander might be that's the way I based my decision.

And it works FLAWLESSLY!

[Doc 1]

Hmmmm, 22,000+ miles on my Street Glide and another 35,000+ miles on my Deuce with PowerCommander (no O2 sensors). It must not work very good at all to have nearly 60,000 miles without one single issue.

So far I've been able to ride issue free in MO, IL, IA, NE, SD, ND, WY, CO, KS, AR, MN, TN, KY, MS, FL, WI, KY, IN, NC, OH, GA, SC, WV... I guess I must have just got lucky with gas in all those 23 states? 

Call it what you want but my no O2 sensor bike seems to perform better than my $32,000 Harley. (Compensators, lifters, stereo, etc, etc..)

WOW....!!!!!!..........

[GMR-PERFORMANCE]

WILLYB

The touring bike has a canned map / download installed in it or was it tuned on a dyno?.. What mods where done to the bike..

[FlaHeatWave]

There are a lot of "old school" tuners out there who still insist on defeating the newer closed loop systems.  There is no VALID reason to do so, IF the tuner knows what he is doing.  Nobody is saying that the bike won't run well in open loop all the time, but to do so has just defeated then entire purpose of the expensive Delphi ECM and associated components, which you paid good money for and function perfectly when allowed to operate.  Again...with a competent tuner doing the tuning.

But it's your bike, so do what you want to it.


The V&H Fuelpak is one of the most crude, outdated, and useless devices still on the market.  Frankly, I'm surprised it's still on the market, but there are still people who buy the BS V&H is telling them.  You might as well have a carburetor and be changing out jets, like we did in the 50's, 60's, and 70's.  To compare the Fuelpak to a device like the TTS, SE Pro Race Tuner, or the newer tuners from Dynojet is like comparing the ignition/fuel management system of a 68 Buick to that of a 2013 auto of any make.

But again, it's your bike...

The '09 had the V&H FuelPak and PowerDuals on it when I picked it up 6/12 with 2,420mi on the clock, added the ThrottlePak soon after I returned to FL.
 
'Was impressed with the way the bike ran both in the White Mtns of NH and around FL at sea level, ran cooler than the stock 110s that I had ridden, no decel popping, responsive with good performance until the 255s fell off.

To me, the FuelPak is great for what it is; a relatively inexpensive, easy to use (NO DYNO), solution.

'Would still be running it except I decided to get rid of the 255s for the 259s and the SE Stage III Pro Kit that comes with the SEPST. My tuner (like most) defeated the 02s (wideband on the '09s) and tuned in open loop on the dyno, after the 2nd dyno tune the bike ran really well (93 octane / sea level) until we got in the higher elevations out west (91 octane 9,000+ft) this summer (spark knock that was hard to drive around in some situations)

Long story short(er); going with the Power Commander V w/ AutoTune so the bike is in constant closed loop (wideband), I am out of the dyno business  even if I decide to add / change components, elevation / fuel fluctuations, all I have to do is ride...

[Cajun851]

Although I don't appreciate your rather clumsy response, based on your experience and contributions to this forum I decided that I should further research the question you raise (above).  Below is a response from The Vance and Hines Tech Center:

"Good Morning,
Unplugging the o2 sensors for the 11'-13' Touring bikes is required. We want the bike running in an open loop so that there will be no confusion between the o2 sensors and the Fuelpak. The o2 sensors detect rich and lean mixtures. Most sensors generate a voltage that the ecm looks at to determine if the mixture is rich or lean, and adjusts the amount of fuel entering the engine accordingly. With that being said, the duty of the Fuelpak is meant to deliver more fuel to compensate for the added air flow from the aftermarket exhaust that has been put on. As you can see there will be confusion between the two, and that is why we ask that you disconnect the o2 sensors.
Thank you,
Robert Martinez / Customer Service Representative
VANCE & HINES
13861 Rosecrans Ave. Santa Fe Springs, CA 90670

t. (800) 592-2529  f. (562) 802-0110"

Further discussion with Rob revealed that Tuners with programmable mapping do the same thing by electronically disregarding the O2 sensors (if connected) this includes Harley's Race Tuner.  Moreover, I called a local Dyno Tuner and he agreed, taking the O2 sensors offline presents a "clean slate" for the tuner and "open loop" is a true "competition" mode. As far as damage to the bike, there is none, void warrantee, probably (most mechanical mods do) I am no longer "under warrantee" anyway.  Admittedly I am no expert, and I have stated MANY times I'm not particularly interested in performance, I made this change for the heat issue, and for a better sound.

Finally, in this topic and others I have read many conflicting opinions from many authors, I thought this was an exchange of ideas, not an opportunity to trash each other.  With all due respect To I disagree with your response, and present the information above as my reason.

OWL

I know this is an rather old post, but wish I had read Owl's post sooner than now regarding the guidance from V&H. I installed a set of V&H Dresser Duals on my '13 CVO Ultra to go with my RC Components 4.5 slip-ons. Look and sound awesome!! I bought the V&H Fuelpak (LCD), ONLY BECAUSE apparently the FP3 with auto-tune and phone app DOES NOT fit the '13 CVO (per V&H). They didn't know when the newer version FP3 would be available for the '13 CVO. Anyway, the Fuelpak install was a piece of cake. The bike ran well for few a days, then I had an idle issue after the bike warmed up and you would shut it off for 10-15 minutes. Crank the bike up and the TAC needle would rapidly dip from 1,000 to 950 RPMs, back and forth, the motor would sound like it was starving, then die. Other times, on a cold start, the motor would run about 5 seconds and die. Normal riding and stopping for a red light seemed fine. Called V&H several times for guidance and nothing worked. A friend suggested I go with the Harley Super Tuner Pro. Dealership installed and 'tuned.' A day and $588 later took the bike out and the idle issue returned. Have an appointment with the dealership in two weeks, but have been looking for a fix on my own. Seeing Owl's guidance from V&H and seeing a video from another manufacturer made me realize that the problem could very well be the O2 sensors. The V&H Fuelpak install video shows the installer using the supplied competition connectors, basically a plastic piece that fits between the sensor male plug and the female bike sensor plug. I didn't use the connectors when I first installed the Fuelpak because the instructions said 'Not street legal. For racing use only.' But, doesn't everything say that??? Yes, I'm a freaking genius!!! Long story short, I installed the competition connectors last night and have been testing my idle issue. Surprisingly, it seems for now that it has solved the problem. I'm rather disappointed though that the V&H tech didn't think about asking me if I used the supplied connectors to eliminate the O2 sensors. Very costly mistake on my part.