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[Scrrem]

Hello All, Just put my bike into the shop for a strong miss at idle and at highway speed.  Put it in the shop last week and the deal is telling me that the plugs are fouled due to bad valve guide seals. I find this a little hard to swallow considering I had them replace the seals 6,000 mile ago.  After telling them they just replaced them, they still insist that it needs valve guide seals.  If they are basing their decision on fouled plugs, I have been getting a lot of oil spitting out the breather lately.  Could this oil be enough to foul the plugs?  I just think there is something else going on with this motor beside valve guide seals.  I have been read on the site about oil out the breather and it seems like a lot of people are having this problem. Could I have bad rings or glazed cylinder, or both? 
Scrrem

[Midnight Rider]

One question that needs answering is what kind of set up for the motor do you have?  Exhaust, Air Cleaner, Backplate, Fuel Management (PCIII, SERT, Etc.)?  I would wonder if it is fuel or oil causing the fouling, or some combination.

Oil into the breather is more in the form of a mist, which is easily burned by the combustion process, all other things being equal.  The most common reason for excess oil in the filter is an overfull crankcase for your particular bike.  Other reasons CAN be, a misaligned cam plate if that has ever been off your bike, bad o-rings or improperly installed o-rings on the camplate.  Those things can cause an excessive amount of oil to puke out the breather holes.

With 6K on new valve stem seals, I'd be wondering about the quality of work/parts I got when they did the job before.  That's just not normal.

Does the bike belch blue smoke when first started, particularly after it's sat few minutes after being run?  That's one sure sign of a valve stem seal leaking, as when it's parked, oil will seep down into the combustion chamber, then get burned when you fire it up.  Unless they are leaking really bad, that will be about the only time you'll see the smoke.  Smoking all the time usually means a piston to cylinder issue: rings, or some other problem with those components not sealing properly.

[Scrrem]

The bike has a HD stage 1 breather kit, Rinehart True Duals, PCIII, Stock ECM.  I would hope a good mechanic would know the difference between oil and fuel fouling.  I did not see the plugs, I wish I had requested they show them to me. 

I don't think the cam plate has ever been off the bike.  They should not have had to remove it to replace the seals the last time around.  That has been the only time anone has been in the motor. The bike usually spits a teaspoon or more every time I ride.  This is around town riding not out on the highway.  I may request they check the cam plate anyway. 

 I have not noticed blue smoke on start-up but I will go out and fire it up tonight and let you know. 

[Midnight Rider]

The bike has a HD stage 1 breather kit, Rinehart True Duals, PCIII, Stock ECM.  I would hope a good mechanic would know the difference between oil and fuel fouling.  I did not see the plugs, I wish I had requested they show them to me. 

I don't think the cam plate has ever been off the bike.  They should not have had to remove it to replace the seals the last time around.  That has been the only time anone has been in the motor. The bike usually spits a teaspoon or more every time I ride.  This is around town riding not out on the highway.  I may request they check the cam plate anyway. 

 I have not noticed blue smoke on start-up but I will go out and fire it up tonight and let you know. 

Yes, one would hope the tech would know the difference in fouling.  If it's spitting a teaspoon or so every time you ride, and it's just around town, at speeds generally under 65mph, that's a bit much.  Usually, if one is going to puke oil out the A/C, it's during high RPM runs for extended time periods, like running 70-90 on the interstate for an hour or two.  That's been my experience, at least.  I'd be sure and check my oil level though...if it's all the way up to the full mark when hot, that could cause the puking.  My bike, and some others I know, will puke a bit, then stop when the oil level gets to a point where the bike likes it to be, generally a half quart low, give or take a fourth.  The cam plate should be fine, though one article I read did say they have seen them installed incorrectly from the factory.  But that's a real long shot, and not common at all.

Of course, they could tell a lot by doing a compression test, but being an optimist, I'll bet your rings, pistons, cylinders are fine.  I'd still be concerned about what kind of parts they used last time.  Somebody on here will know more about good vs bad types of seals, etc.  You might also PM hd-dude about the parts...he works on several members bikes ere.

[Hoist!]

Yes, one would hope the tech would know the difference in fouling.  If it's spitting a teaspoon or so every time you ride, and it's just around town, at speeds generally under 65mph, that's a bit much.  Usually, if one is going to puke oil out the A/C, it's during high RPM runs for extended time periods, like running 70-90 on the interstate for an hour or two.  That's been my experience, at least.  I'd be sure and check my oil level though...if it's all the way up to the full mark when hot, that could cause the puking.  My bike, and some others I know, will puke a bit, then stop when the oil level gets to a point where the bike likes it to be, generally a half quart low, give or take a fourth.  The cam plate should be fine, though one article I read did say they have seen them installed incorrectly from the factory.  But that's a real long shot, and not common at all.

Of course, they could tell a lot by doing a compression test, but being an optimist, I'll bet your rings, pistons, cylinders are fine.  I'd still be concerned about what kind of parts they used last time.  Somebody on here will know more about good vs bad types of seals, etc.  You might also PM hd-dude about the parts...he works on several members bikes ere.

Terry, you're right about oil level. I have the Digital Dipstick, and after adding 4 quarts at the oil change, the dipstick says it's overfull! I think you're onto to something with that 3-1/2 Qt thing. Hoist!

[Twolanerider]

Don't forget guys.  The dipstick measure oil levels hot too.  It doens't make a huge difference up or down the stick.  But it does make a difference.

As for the valve seals.  Several of the 04s had a problem with a bad run of seals.  I didn't think that problem extended in to the 05 production though. Redundant valve seal problems in such short order would at least cause me to question things more thoroughly too.  It's your motor and your ass when it's riding above that motor. So don't hesitate to ask questions enough, and pointed enough, to be satisfied the answers make sense.