Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[tommyo]

At about 800 miles into the break in the engine sounded like pee gravel bouncing around the valve cover between 2100 rpm and 3000 rpm. 4th and 5th gear roll ons or if you were to stab the throttle.

Been on the dyno 3 times now and they are telling me the pump gas is not good enough for the 10.5/1 that they built. Tried some octain boost but doesn't do a thing. Now having 2000+ miles on the new engine I am waiting to burn a hole in the top of the piston. It is at another shop now and they said they think they can tune it out. I will let you know. Any ideas?

Also It has a S+S 585g cam. Off of idle it coughs about a quarter sec then hits. They are telling me it is because of the overlap of the cam. I think thats bull it should hit now. All my buddies that have simmular stuff pop when you hit the throttle. I don't think they started the tune low enough.

Last, why is my tq seem so low? 97hp + 92tq this was on the first tune I had.

[tommyo]

It has a power commander. Would a race tuner help?

[Twolanerider]

It has a power commander. Would a race tuner help?

More important question than which device is the skill of the tuner.  Go with whichever device the closest gifted tuner to you recommends.  You're paying him to use the darned thing after all  .

[kojak]

Find a good engine build shop. Your cam might have too much overlap for your compression. If that's so, then either swap the cam to something that has closer lift/duration to stock cam or increase compression by swapping out pistons etc. They should be able to diagnose for you. Increasing octane etc wont help.

[tommyo]

Got it figured out. Wrong base map from download. Sad that a dealer that built the motor had it in there for three tunes and missed this all together. Changed shops and they got it right away!

[Unbalanced]

TommyO,
Which dealer had it the first three tries

Glad you got it figured out.  So how does it run, any numbers to share now?

[tommyo]

Just got back from a ride. Got it good and hot and it is still there. I'm kinda bummed. I'm at 102hp and 99tq. Would dropping the cam some help?

[Unbalanced]

Tommyo,

Are you sure before you get started that noises you're hearing aren't a misadjusted pushrod or rocker boxes not being clearanced correctly or just a noisy valve train or the gear drives chattering?

While they brought your numbers up semi substantially are you still sure the timing just isnt too far advanced to get you numbers?

Your using a race tuner?  Who did the first tunes and then who did the last tune?

Is it pinging all the time or only under hard accel?   Any specific place in the rpm band?

Are you running a Chevron or an Amoco gas or a high octaned gas like the 100 or 11x octane fuel if you do does the pinging go away?


Are you sure the compression is 10.5 to 1 and that someone didnt screw the pooch and make a mistake?   Do you know what the cranking compression is?

Sorry a little foggy on the memory side was it Hal's that did the work?


S&S 585G: Designed for 88” to 95” engines with compression ratios from 10 to 10.5:1 and 100”
If your at 10.5 to 1 you should be fine per S&S catalog.   

              Valve Timing       duration                 centerline               lift TDC
cam    intake    exhaut    Intake exhaust   lift    intake  exhaust       intake     exhaust
585g   20/45    60/20      245      260      585    102.5     110            .186        .179

[tommyo]

No Kutter... Brought it to Woodstock had wrong base map. Got some of it out on the dyno. Went in and retarded the timing to -5 from 10%- 100% at 2000 rpm -3000 rpm. Seemed to help some more. Tuning out some of the power though. Rode this past Saturday... This pile of crap that I built that I thought was going to be low maintinance either stuck a ring or blew a valve seal. Blue smoke from the rear cyclinder. Would a bad valve seal cause my original ping?

[SirMichael]

         Best thing you can do is... get rid of the '06' and get a '07' or '08' with a 96in already and then just do the 103in kit!! Your buddies should tell you, they run great!!!!!

[Rhino]

Sorry to hear of your dilema regarding your build.  As I gain more experience, I find that many shops want to experiment on your bike with what they think will work, and not go with a more conservative build that is proven.  I know everyone wants the power, and tq to be better than the next, but the best choices for the amount you want to spend, need to be looked at carefully.  The is a base philosophy shared, with good combinations, that a few people on this board can steer you towards.  Yes, it is more boring, but getting the components right is key, the being able to tune it up to its max is the most rewarding. Then a carb, efi, racetuner, tmax, pc etc, will run the bike without question, but then your choice is to maximise that good combination by higher tuning, not tuning for compromise.

Building it and then 'tuning it out', is exactly the wrong thing, and as you saw, reduces the whole purpose of even doing the mod.  I would not be exactly happy. 

And of course the disclaimer....JMHO

Rhino

[sadunbar]

No Kutter... Brought it to Woodstock had wrong base map. Got some of it out on the dyno. Went in and retarded the timing to -5 from 10%- 100% at 2000 rpm -3000 rpm. Seemed to help some more. Tuning out some of the power though. Rode this past Saturday... This pile of crap that I built that I thought was going to be low maintinance either stuck a ring or blew a valve seal. Blue smoke from the rear cyclinder. Would a bad valve seal cause my original ping?

tommyo,

A bad valve seal would not cause pinging.  Pinging is detonation...fuel or timing related, not oil related.  If installing the proper base map and dyno tuning did not solve your issues, I would have to question the cam grind.  If retarding the timing helped, you would seem to have a cam with to much advance built into it or to much overlap built in it - possibly the cam was installed a tooth off and is installed advanced??  Or possibly they built more compression into the motor then intended.  Retarding the timing would help all of these conditions.  The SS 585G should work fine if the cam was ground properly and the build is correct.  Blue smoke is not good, given the what details of your problems that are known.  Personally, I would stop right now and have Kutter's pull it apart (slowly - looking for a build mistake), diagnose the failure and review the components that were used - and review the build.  I would then take that information back to Gary Sink's at Kutter's.  My experience with Gary is he is as fair and straight up as they come.  Come armed with the details of the mapping issue discovered at Woodstock.  Kutter's has built many good motors, but it sounds like they blew this one - I'd give them a chance to make it right.  It that doesn't work out, then I would go straight to Mike at Hal's in New Berlin.

sorry for the problems - I am sure you spent a few bucks and had high expectations - how disappointing and frustrating...

Scott

[dejavo]

Tommyo
I have to disagree with Sandunbar. A valve seal or something of that nature can definately affect pinging. I just had my scoot diagnosed. Was using oil and too much pinging. My builder checked step by step and found a problem in the rear head. Bottom line is the oil gets into the combustion chamber with gas and ends up lowering the octane. Oil use and pinging. Steve from GMR also helped me figure this out over the phone. He knows his poo and shares the knowledge with us. CHECK VALVES etc. Good luck.

[GMR-PERFORMANCE]

First off the HTCC has issues all its own. The entire shape of piston and chamber leave much to be desired. If the squish is off just a bit it will ping, Most shops do not check piston height. With some blending of the chamber and piston dome it can be cured, as long as you have squish set correct as well. This may mean shortening the cylinders.


 And a valve seal will cause ping. Look at this way if you add oil into the fuel you will lower the octane rating soooooooooo Tommyo bikes was doing this very thing. It is not common as the ex seal is more prone to leaking than intake due to temps but anyways it will do it. Like asking if it is ok to add a half gallon of kerosene to your fuel tank?? 

Also have you checked for a intake leak?? these HTCC set ups have a d port and many do not use the correct intake manifold double check that. In tune we see 100/100 when properly built but out of the box setups are rarely right and the ping issue you have is extremely common. Sorry for the bad news but it is what it is. If care had been taken when build this issue can be tuned out. But when they are just bolted together this is the end result. Many shops do not check PDH( piston deck height) and it is a must with that combo.

[tommyo]

So far everything seems to be working fine. Dealer (Kutter) wants to make it right and cover all the costs. Retarded the timing -5 from 30-100% and the detonation is very minimal. Now that I have reached over the 100hp mark I need to get some tq back.