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Author Topic: Need help diagnosing 103  (Read 2649 times)

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Boatman

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Re: Need help diagnosing 103
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2008, 11:01:24 PM »

It's kind of strange that if it was a sumping problem, he has the same problem of no power with the stock oil pump and now with the Feuling pump and cam plate.   :nixweiss:

There might be an assembly error.  It is easy to disturb an oil pump oring and the pump has to be tightened so much and then the motor rotated to align the pump and then tighten fully.  Just trying to remember the oil pump procedure when I installed my Feuling pump.

Does the bike pull like it has any power?   
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Twolanerider

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Re: Need help diagnosing 103
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2008, 11:13:17 PM »


It's kind of strange that if it was a sumping problem, he has the same problem of no power with the stock oil pump and now with the Feuling pump and cam plate.   :nixweiss:
 


That was my thought also Bob.  No guts either before or after the cam change.  You'd hope that the tech didn't recreate the problem putting it all back together.  But who knows....  :nixweiss:
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kr

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Re: Need help diagnosing 103
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2008, 11:15:06 PM »

yes, it actually pulls pretty decent.  And I am not getting any blowby. But maybe a poor installation problem with the fueling pump?  Thanks, kr
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porthole

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Re: Need help diagnosing 103
« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2008, 02:29:18 AM »

yes, it actually pulls pretty decent.  And I am not getting any blowby.


Maybe the Dyno ain't worth 'chit and the reading is off by 25................
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rednectum

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Re: Need help diagnosing 103
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2008, 05:01:23 AM »

looking at cam specs, the 258 closes at 52. not a bagger cam unless you get compression way up, then it will suck kinda like the 253. running calc with 85cc chamber (typical hd), i get 166 ccp. you mentioned you thought it should be around 160.

thoughts:
  are you holding the throttle open during compression check?
  were the rocker boxes and tops clearanced?
  yep, sumping may cripple hp, but not compression.

here is 04 eg dyno sheet with fatcat, tmax, SE air cleaner. as you can see, not worth money to build around these cams. and 258 specs show it would come on even later than 253!
  even if you get comp corrected, bike will still be a dog.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2008, 05:05:20 AM by rednectum »
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kr

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Re: Need help diagnosing 103
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2008, 07:19:59 AM »

Thanks for the reply. Thinking about the sumping issue last night, it doesn't make sense to me as the back pressure would rob power but would not effect the volume in the cylinder at the top of the stroke. My dyno man actually had the same reaction to using the 258 and suggesting switching out to 251s which, as I mentioned in the thread, was done when the dealership went back in to see if things the cams were aligned correctly. I think they close at 46...and I picked up a couple hp but this didn't solve the compression issue, obviously.  It was the dyno man that was convinced something is wrong with the engine and did the initial leak and compression tests. Throttle was open during compression check, don't know the boxes and tops.

It seems to me that with no leakage, the key variables are shape of the piston, shape of the head and stroke length. But the engine couldn't have had the wrong pistons or flywheel installed initially could it? or the wrong heads sent? 
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rednectum

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Re: Need help diagnosing 103
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2008, 08:25:48 AM »

Thanks for the reply. Thinking about the sumping issue last night, it doesn't make sense to me as the back pressure would rob power but would not effect the volume in the cylinder at the top of the stroke. My dyno man actually had the same reaction to using the 258 and suggesting switching out to 251s which, as I mentioned in the thread, was done when the dealership went back in to see if things the cams were aligned correctly. I think they close at 46...and I picked up a couple hp but this didn't solve the compression issue, obviously.  It was the dyno man that was convinced something is wrong with the engine and did the initial leak and compression tests. Throttle was open during compression check, don't know the boxes and tops.

It seems to me that with no leakage, the key variables are shape of the piston, shape of the head and stroke length. But the engine couldn't have had the wrong pistons or flywheel installed initially could it? or the wrong heads sent? 

leakdown ok, so piston size/rings = ok.
stroke length,rod length, or wristpin location would show up as wrong deck height.
wrong heads? dunno? but when builder cc'd them, he would use formula to determine correct compression for cams---------nuff said there i guess. when i ran calc, i also punched in HD head gskt thickness of .052.

sounds like you are goiiiiing to have to pull heads to get it right. check deck height, cc. if calc doesnt show min of 175 ccp, i wouldnt put it back together till it is corrected.

BTW, a 46 close still isnt a great bagger cam unless you get compression to around 10.5 and it will still come on late. for a 103, about 40 close will make good low end at 9.8 or so.

funny to think this all started because the dealer scared you with waranty. read thiis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson-Moss_Warranty_Act

and remember, you dont need warranty if job is done right. if job is done at dealer-----better buy extended warranty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Hoist!

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Re: Need help diagnosing 103
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2008, 08:28:36 AM »

leakdown ok, so piston size/rings = ok.
stroke length,rod length, or wristpin location would show up as wrong deck height.
wrong heads? dunno? but when builder cc'd them, he would use formula to determine correct compression for cams---------nuff said there i guess. when i ran calc, i also punched in HD head gskt thickness of .052.

sounds like you are goiiiiing to have to pull heads to get it right. check deck height, cc. if calc doesnt show min of 175 ccp, i wouldnt put it back together till it is corrected.

BTW, a 46 close still isnt a great bagger cam unless you get compression to around 10.5 and it will still come on late. for a 103, about 40 close will make good low end at 9.8 or so.

funny to think this all started because the dealer scared you with waranty. read thiis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson-Moss_Warranty_Act

and remember, you dont need warranty if job is done right. if job is done at dealer-----better buy extended warranty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Wiser words were never spoken! FTF & FTW!!! :2vrolijk_21:

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kr

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Re: Need help diagnosing 103
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2008, 08:49:34 AM »

leakdown ok, so piston size/rings = ok.
stroke length,rod length, or wristpin location would show up as wrong deck height.
wrong heads? dunno? but when builder cc'd them, he would use formula to determine correct compression for cams---------nuff said there i guess. when i ran calc, i also punched in HD head gskt thickness of .052.

sounds like you are goiiiiing to have to pull heads to get it right. check deck height, cc. if calc doesnt show min of 175 ccp, i wouldnt put it back together till it is corrected.

BTW, a 46 close still isnt a great bagger cam unless you get compression to around 10.5 and it will still come on late. for a 103, about 40 close will make good low end at 9.8 or so.

funny to think this all started because the dealer scared you with waranty. read thiis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson-Moss_Warranty_Act

and remember, you dont need warranty if job is done right. if job is done at dealer-----better buy extended warranty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you for this input...I'll see how it goes. kr
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DCFIREMANN

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Re: Need help diagnosing 103
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2008, 10:19:20 AM »

KR you told us about the problems. Can you tell us what pistons were installed and the cc volume of the combustion chambers? I know this may be a pain in the a$$ but it is very important. If you did not change the pistons that would give you a problem. The SE103 from the factory has a compression of less that 9 to 1. Installing a cam like the SE251's would only make the problem worse and could and would lower your compression.

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kr

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Re: Need help diagnosing 103
« Reply #25 on: April 22, 2008, 01:30:22 PM »

hello.  I did not change the pistons. I understood that the stock SE stroker pistons were also spec for the MCR performanc heads. I understood the stock pistons to be cast flat top (vs. the optional forged) which result in a 10,8:1  I had thought about going for the forged but they appear to be similar in form with a slightly lower ratio. Plus, it didn't require doing anything but the top end. Mistake?  kr
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rednectum

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Re: Need help diagnosing 103
« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2008, 02:29:19 PM »

the 253 cam from factory is what kills the 103 compression. the hemi looking heads dont help it either. would like to know what the mcr heads cc at also.

heck, never even seen a mcr. but to give an idea, a 103 with .052 head gasket and 85 cc heads shows ccp @ 170 for 258 cam, 177 for 251, and 184 for woods tw6 (closes at 40).

uncorrected compression is 9.7 to 1
8.4 for 258
8.3 for 253
8.7 for 251
8.9 for tw6       so you can see where the comp drops quickly with a few degrees cam change. you builder would know this, your dealer will not, nor will he do more than bolt together some parts and call it a day.

hoping this helps
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