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[Cowboy2]

Hello from Australia...

Old School Road Trash Scooter Tramp here..... As far back as the first Shovel (1966) in a straight legg 1957 rigid frame, Suicide clutch, stick shift, no front brake on a 10" over wide glide...  Know nothing much about Tuners, and want to check out this advice:

I had had a HD Tuner only on my 96, then the 103, and now on my 110 CVO with added V&H and opened up Super Trapp mufflers and my local HD shop said with the exhaust analyzer that it did not need a tuner...  Now they (local HD shop here in Australia) claim their HD Vin # locked Race Tuner has much further reaching parameters and abilities than the other aftermarket, and the only reason the other ones are popular is they are simpler to use where the HD Tuner is complex and far reaching and takes a VCM hookup to a laptop and someone that knows what they are doing.  Is this true?  

They also claim that looking at my exhaust gas chart, it might not make a difference (I was impressed at their honesty as they could have stung me for a HD Race Tuner)  They said I might not notice as it was pretty good just going slightly above the mediun line for lean at 3000 rpm.  I was impressed they did not try and take advantage for $$$ reasons. It is their contention that maybe just ride it, and it will smooth out at 4000-5000 kms.  AS to HOT, big jugs, big C.I. and summer with a new engine (summer down under that is)... Might be all it is?    

Comments welcome, and appreciated...

I Love this Forum, takes the STING out of not being able to ride now with an extreme monsoon rainfall of record proportion raining nearly every day here in Queensland Australia...  I ride in the rain, but a one hour ride is about a one hour wash, dry, and polish job on a new CVO to get the road grime off... 

[timtoolman]

nothing harley has is impressive as far as a tuner goes,  most use the tts  or pcv,  ive had both, tts is far more flexible and has more features

[Twolanerider]

Read through the following linked thread:

http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=53222.0


It's a newer option that's been getting good reports in initial use.  Might finally have an effective option to eliminate dynos and guess work from the equation.

[Rio]

TTS & THUNDERMAX ARE TWO TO CONSIDER.

[timtoolman]

Ive had a tmax also  would have one now but the intermitent  gauge shutting down is still a problem.  but thats another issue and a previous thread,  but yes i could group it with the tts and pcv  for being the top three tts being first because of all the unique  features it has over others not having

[walstibsf]

No matter which tuner it is, it also depends on the mapping that you use and how "optimized" the mapping is for the components you are running and your particular bike.  I'm very skeptical that the fueling on your stock ECM does anything optimal for performance.  Did the dealer provide you with the dyno sheet and AFR(air/fuel ratio) chart from the run or runs they did?  I'd be very interested to see what the results were.  THAT's where you'll know if they're feeding you a line.

Good luck and laters...

[Doc 1]

I disagree with what your dealer is saying...... First off you have to understand they are doing a 100% throttle run with a afr line, then showing you that it isn't that lean....however.....you are NOT getting any information on the AFR from start up through the cruise and mid range. Harley ECM (and their maps) are set around 12.5 to 12.8 at WOT which is very rich as far as I'm concerned....so....when you change the pipes and air filter and do a dyno run the WOT afr will be within a safe operating area (13.6 to 13. but I can promise you that in the cruise area you will be way lean making an oil burner out of your $20,000.00 investment.
Bottom line is WOT runs tell you nothing about how the bike is running where it lives......if you rode with the throttle wide open all day then the dyno graphs speaks volumes.
As for the new Harley tool.....it's nothing more that canned maps and if thats good enough for you then so be it however it will NEVER match a GOOD tune up on a Dyno..!!!!!!!!!
Doc

[murphy]

Harley is selling race bikes now that come with an option of adding a Power Commander, that should say a lot, the race tuner may soon be a thing of the past!

[Twolanerider]

Harley is selling race bikes now that come with an option of adding a Power Commander, that should say a lot, the race tuner may soon be a thing of the past!

The MoCo is doing this?   Or a Harley dealership, tuning or racing entity?  Would love to see a citation detailing this. 

[murphy]

Info came from my shop guy after he did his recerts at Dynojet last month... just sent him a text to get more details but I may not be able to track him down till after Christmas.

I'll post more when I know.

[murphy]

Hasn't responded yet... but I'm getting close:

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/03/10/we-smell-a-ringer-vance-and-hines-xr1200-spec-series-set-for-2010/2

[Cowboy2]

Thank all of you for your help....  I am in a remote place, and do not have the window that you Guys have... I appreciate your answers..

My concern was breaking in the new CVO to 100+ degree weather in Australian summer.  The Dealer did this at 2000 kms, when I went to V&H and cleaned out Super Trapp exhaust, and they tweaked the AFR all they could with the stock ECM and told me that in their opinion it was good and did not need a Race Tuner after all.  I was impressed with their honesty and not getting into my pocket..  This Dealer is trying to play fair on a level field, at least IMO.

 What the dealer gave me was an exhaust gas analysis, printed in chart form, from idle to 4500 rpm showing the rich to lean printout on the Dyno...  He showed me that it ran below the mid baseline for AFR, except for a brief run up into the lean spectrum at 3000.  But he told me that stock it was higher.  This was done on a Dyno over a time interval at all the throttle range, with a printout.  He showed me that there were a couple of minor dips and bumps, and all the tuner would do is smooth that out and I might not even be able to notice it.


On your recommendations, I may ask them about the other tuners, but I am thinking right now to just accept it is a bit hot, not worry about it, and go ahead and finish the break in before doing anything... At least up to about 5000kms.  They assured me that what little lean it ran was not a worry and better than a stock one.

This sound right to you?

MERRY CHRISTMAS AND GOD BLESS ALL OF YOU (A day early down under, past the International Dateline)

[walstibsf]

CB2, I guess i'm missing something:  "they tweaked the AFR all they could with the stock ECM and told me that in their opinion it was good and did not need a Race Tuner after all."  Without the race tuner, what are they using to "tweak" the AFR with?  Smells fishy, but maybe I'm not getting all the info.

Merry Christmas to you, too, Bruddah, and to all fellow CVO'ers.

[Cowboy2]

I thought I understood that they had some ability with a laptop to tweak the Stock ECM, there was some lattitude of adjustment there.

I do not know myself.  That is why the questions...

[kraut]

no, they don't. Not without additional hard- and software they would certainly have billed you separately. Years ago there was a "hacked" (no longer VIN restricted) version of the old Race Tuner but this one won't work on the newer bikes. There used to be a "open" Direct Link license too, but not for 07 up bikes. All actual products as far as I know are VIN restricted and therefore billed per bike.