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[sadunbar]

the main issue with the pcv is that it eliminates the o2 sensors and tunes the bike like a pre 04 bike

Not commenting on the virtues of one brand tuner over another.....but the Power Commander V w/autotune utilizes 02 sensors.

http://www.powercommander.com/powercommander/products/powercommanderv/powercommander_v.aspx

[Twolanerider]

More miss than hit on nested quotes here, but this is a motorcycle, HD in particular, forum...

Actually not.  The sensor suite has been discussed before.  It's history has been detailed.  And bikes are part of the automotive industry.  This site has never been so narrowly defined as you suggest it might be here.

And to really suggest that Harley's are state of the art in many areas is naive at best.  Machining is betrayed by lax tolerances and standards that are illustrated by repetitive and consistent engine issues.  Vendor management skills (or lack of) is illustrated by everything from NIM harness issues to Dunlop tire problems (and myriad things in between).  The lack of consistency is obvious.  And even if one does not (just because he wants to narrow the competition, not because it's a more justifiable comparison) want to compare to the automotive industry at large there's no way one can suggest that Harleys are truly state of the art and at the cutting edge even when measured against other bikes.  We're still hanging add-on GPS units on handlebars or klugding them on top of fairings when Goldwings have offered integrated audio and display solutions for years.  We're only barely in to a relatively modern ABS system and not that far from kludges eating up half a saddlebag while BMW has offered an excellent small system for years. 

Engine management isn't some cutting edge state of the art.  Accessory systems aren't even close.  Touring bikes are still pulling hard copper wire through handlebars; at least Softails have gotten moderately newer there.  Water cooling will begin an advan...... ok, nothing is gained by further belaboring the obvious.  The comparisons would be more than most would be willing to type up anyway.  Our bikes are cool (a perception) but they're by no means the height of modernity (a relatively quantifiable or at least comparative measure).

[Twolanerider]

Not commenting on the virtues of one brand tuner over another.....but the Power Commander V w/autotune utilizes 02 sensors.

http://www.powercommander.com/powercommander/products/powercommanderv/powercommander_v.aspx

Have played with that version a couple times Scott.  It actually doesn't suck.  Granted it doesn't allow all the controls and options that some of the more sophisticated management systems do.  But those some larger suites of controls and options also allow for more choices that are sometimes best not exercised.  So it's something of a crap shoot.

Given that most home users only ever get their bikes dialed in "close" at best there's probably not a ton of pracical difference for most of us working at home under our shade trees.  And if one is paying someone else to do the task there's still a lot of sense to using the tool that the man knows how to use.  He'll likely do much better with a good tool he's very familar with than he would with an even more sophisticated tool he has little familiarity with.  And, really, why would any of us want to pay someone to be their learning curve or their guinea pig?

[sadunbar]

Have played with that version a couple times Scott.  It actually doesn't suck.  Granted it doesn't allow all the controls and options that some of the more sophisticated management systems do.  But those some larger suites of controls and options also allow for more choices that are sometimes best not exercised.  So it's something of a crap shoot.

Given that most home users only ever get their bikes dialed in "close" at best there's probably not a ton of pracical difference for most of us working at home under our shade trees.  And if one is paying someone else to do the task there's still a lot of sense to using the tool that the man knows how to use.   He'll likely do much better with a good tool he's very familar with than he would with an even more sophisticated tool he has little familiarity with.  And, really, why would any of us want to pay someone to be their learning curve or their guinea pig?

Yep..agree completely.  Some brand tuning devices are more capable and provide more features than others, but for the average rider, the results are not likely noticable.  Probably more important than the differences in tuning devices are the capabilities of the tuner himself.  It's sound advice to find a capable tuner and use the tuning device he is most adept with...   

[dep47]

Have the PCV on my 010 because it was the one recommended by the tuner I chose.  No regrets, 30,000 miles later and going strong.  Could be a slight drop in fuel economy, but bike runs cooler and the power increase was outstanding.

[glens]

A lot of thoughts have been expressed now in this thread.  Some beyond the initial scope.

PC-V with AT modules costs more than a TTS, right?  And with the PC-V you'll have to add another piggyback if you want to address throttle progressivity, but I don't think the ThrottlePak will allow anything close to the adjustment (if you have any such control at all?) which you can do natively.  With any piggyback which can alter spark timing (you do want to be able to optimize that, right?), you'll find that the stock EFI's Ion Sense combustion monitoring will not have as good a chance to work properly.

Reiteration:  For the Harley, you'll not find any EFI system more capable than the current Delphi packages.  That's all I said before, maybe just not exactly those words.  I never opened any ABS, infotainment, airbag, or any other cans of worms.

If a person truly is a good tuner but they're still stuck in the Stone Age of EFI, their learning curve should be short and sweet and I'm sure they'd not only not charge you by the hour to get a bit up to speed with a much better method/system, but they might even throw you some bones for introducing them to it.

To the thread opener:  please do not use a piggyback controller.  Visit http://www.mastertune.net/dealers.html and look for somebody in your area.  If nothing jumps out at you, click your way over to http://www.docsperformancetuning.com/ (a link within the previous linked page, and a forum member here I think goes by "Doc 1"), give him a call at the number right there on that home page, and he'll likely have somebody he knows and/or trained right in your area to recommend.  That's if your guy is unwilling to take a look at and try the TTS.

I'm not affiliated with any manufacturers or sellers of any of this equipment, but I have used the TTS myself and I'm telling you, with the latest calibrations you can smooth out your VE tables something fierce all while keeping closed-loop up and running.  You'll definitely notice the smoothness and power at part-throttle operation with smooth-flowing fully accurate VE tables.  Even if you were to wind up spending a few hundred dollars extra for the TTS and getting your ECM set up correctly with it, you will honest-to-God forget all about the money before the first tank of fuel is gone through.  And it will continue to seem a bargain through every subsequent tank of fuel.  You'll have closed-loop control to maintain the level of tune in the face of different fuels you'll run into, as your equipment ages (your fuel pressure will surely fluctuate over time, as well your injectors) and you'll not be throwing money away at the pumps while insulating your combustion chamber and exhaust system with a bunch of extra carbon because you open-loop tuned for possible worst-case conditions.

[ultrafxr]

Having experience with both the PC and the SERT/TTS I would not use the PC for one simple reason - too many failures. Granted it has been a few years (prior to PCV). Mine failed and I personally know half a dozen other folks whose have crapped out. I much prefer not having to rely on an interface but make changes directly to the ECM.


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[Z man]

Ok, I'll add my two cents worth here. 

I had the PCIII on my '05 Ultra and it worked fine for about 16000 miles before I learned the settings had some how changed and my engine was running way to lean at lower RPMs.  I burned my valves and had to have the the heads remanufactured again.

I sent the PCIII back to the manufacturer because my tuner could not make connection to it with his Dyno, nor could I do any manual commands to wiyh it.  The company told me it worked fine for them and returned it to me without doing anything to it!  I threw it away and got the TTS tuner and never looked back!  I now have my second TTS on my CVO.  I don't think I have ever seen many complaints about the TTS from anyone.  Just find a good tuner who understands it and you will not be dissapointed!  I did my own maps I got from Fulsac Perf. with my laptop and she runs sweet.

[willyB]

I've owned the PCIII and PCV without issue.

2003 Deuce - 32,000 miles - No Issues At All!

Sold Deuce and bought 2011 Screaming Eagle Street Glide and installed PCV (purchased from FeulMoto with pre-loaded canned map)- 14,000 miles - 4000 mile trip through the mountains - No Issues At All!

Just for fun my friend wanted to see if he could get a better tune so we put it on his dyno. After all that tuning he was able to squeeze out another 1.33 HP and 2.26 TQ. Fortunately, I'm a friend and the dyno time did not cost me anything. I actually run the canned map from FuelMoto because it runs smoother and quite frankly I don't run full throttle all the time.

Now consider how much money I saved because FuelMoto installed a great "free" canned map when I purchased the PC from them. Total install time was less than 2 minutes.

The big question becomes......which type of trained professional tuners do you find most often? I choose PowerCommander because, outside of the "stealer", nobody in my area was skilled at the other options.

Personally I think they all perform the same for us stock built or even us cam change guys out there. That's why I didn't even consider spending the big bucks for the AutoTune option. Now if you're doing a 500 HP super build then listen to your builder.

I'm sure you'll hear that I'm wrong but it's hard to beat the experience I've had with PowerCommander.

[dlaws01]

I'd like to make a recommendation but I really don't know what I'm talking about.   

[HOGMIKE]

I've owned the PCIII and PCV without issue.

2003 Deuce - 32,000 miles - No Issues At All!

Sold Deuce and bought 2011 Screaming Eagle Street Glide and installed PCV (purchased from FeulMoto with pre-loaded canned map)- 14,000 miles - 4000 mile trip through the mountains - No Issues At All!

Just for fun my friend wanted to see if he could get a better tune so we put it on his dyno. After all that tuning he was able to squeeze out another 1.33 HP and 2.26 TQ. Fortunately, I'm a friend and the dyno time did not cost me anything. I actually run the canned map from FuelMoto because it runs smoother and quite frankly I don't run full throttle all the time.

Now consider how much money I saved because FuelMoto installed a great "free" canned map when I purchased the PC from them. Total install time was less than 2 minutes.

The big question becomes......which type of trained professional tuners do you find most often? I choose PowerCommander because, outside of the "stealer", nobody in my area was skilled at the other options.

Personally I think they all perform the same for us stock built or even us cam change guys out there. That's why I didn't even consider spending the big bucks for the AutoTune option. Now if you're doing a 500 HP super build then listen to your builder.

I'm sure you'll hear that I'm wrong but it's hard to beat the experience I've had with PowerCommander.

I'm sure there are a lot of riders thinking just "plug and play" and just "ride".
On the other hand.........
Some of us just can't help messing with our bikes.
In my case I was intimidated with Twin Cams, until I bought some tools and waited until my '09 was out of warranty to open it up.
I've learned a lot about the new bikes, and enjoyed learning from other members.
Since I have lots of time on my hands, I don't mind helping other club members around here with their projects. (They have to work! LOL)
I've got my bikes running very nice at present. I won't mess with these. I'll get another "project" to work on for 2012.
JMHO
 

[willyB]

I'd like to make a recommendation but I really don't know what I'm talking about.   

That's got to be the best quote I've seen on this forum.

It's great starting the day with a hardy laugh. Definitely made my morning.

[Smitty2u]

That's got to be the best quote I've seen on this forum.

It's great starting the day with a hardy laugh. Definitely made my morning.

I got quite a chuckle out of that myself.

[do-dahman]

One of the more honest posts!