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Author Topic: Synthetic vs. standard oil  (Read 1246 times)

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pkl

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Synthetic vs. standard oil
« on: June 26, 2011, 06:30:47 AM »

Saw a friend of mine at the local HD shop Saturday and he said he was getting 2 of his bikes serviced for Sturgis. He told me he was changing back from synthetic to regular oil. Said he has been reading several articles about zinc content and wanted to get away from it. He asked the service manager(who races cars), about doing this and he said he didn't see a problem with it. Said oil breakdown is not an issue. He said race cars (drag)are not using synthetics. I know they are heavier oils but would like your input.
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Half_Crazy

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Re: Synthetic vs. standard oil
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2011, 08:14:05 AM »

Race cars get the oil changed VERY often.

Zinc and phosphorus help an oil resist "shear" forces. On bikes where the oil is shared by the trans/clutch/crankcase this is especially important. What is the downside of Zinc?

The best oil is NEW oil. You could use Quaker State straight 30 weight, change it every 1500 miles, and the motor would last forever.
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grc

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Re: Synthetic vs. standard oil
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2011, 10:30:28 AM »


Comparing race cars to air cooled street motorcycles is not a good reflection on the guy who said that.  As noted by Half-Crazy, race cars get the oil changed and the engines rebuilt very often, they use special purpose racing oils that are definitely not appropriate for street engines, and last time I checked there weren't any air cooled race cars still running around.  Comparing apples to rutabagas.

The biggest advantage of a true synthetic IMHO is the ability to handle higher temperatures without degradation.  All the other advantaqes, and there are many, are secondary when it comes to an air cooled Harley.  But feel free to run dino oil if you prefer.  Just make sure you change it very often and try to avoid any riding conditions that let the oil temps creep up much over 250°F.  And I'm still waiting to hear what the supposed advantage is to running "regular" oil, other than possibly pricing. 

By the way, I don't know what your friend was reading, but there is no reason I can think of to avoid zinc/phosphate (ZDDP) in your oil.  This has been a beneficial anti-wear additive for ages, and the only controversy I'm aware of is that current emission systems with catalytic converters caused the industry to reduce the amount of ZDDP, since excessive amounts of phosphate can contaminate and kill a cat.  That isn't any different for synthetic oil or dino oils, they all have to meet the same standards in this regard.  And the controversy comes from those running older design engines with things like flat tappets, where the high pressure metal to metal contact can cause rapid wear of cam and tappet surfaces.  ZDDP creates a boundary layer to protect the surfaces in these kinds of applications, and folks running the newer oils in those vehicles claim to have increased wear problems.  This has led to marketing of ZDDP additives people can add, especially for break-in of new cams and tappets.


Jerry
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spydglide

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Re: Synthetic vs. standard oil
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2011, 11:02:59 AM »

  This has led to marketing of ZDDP additives people can add, especially for break-in of new cams and tappets.


Jerry
So, Jerry, is this a additive that might actually be worth adding to our motor and is not just 'snake-oil' and a waste of $$$?  :-\ spyder
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dayne66

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Re: Synthetic vs. standard oil
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2011, 11:08:59 AM »

With a Jetta TDI,some of us were adding it to help the cams not wear out prematurely......with excellent results, guys with 300,000+ kms with virtually no lobe wear, instead of 100,000 kms needing a new cam and associated parts. Even the Castrol (505.01 VW spec) oil had a high level of zinc in it....but, not enough in this case.


So, Jerry, is this a additive that might actually be worth adding to our motor and is not just 'snake-oil' and a waste of $$$?  :-\ spyder

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grc

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Re: Synthetic vs. standard oil
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2011, 11:45:29 AM »

So, Jerry, is this a additive that might actually be worth adding to our motor and is not just 'snake-oil' and a waste of $$$?  :-\ spyder


For most modern engines, I would say it's not necessary or advisable if you are using a modern motor oil that meets current specifications.  They still have to meet anti-wear standards, they just do it using other additives that don't kill cats.  It might make sense if you have one of those older flat tappet vehicles and you install a new cam and lifters, at least for break-in, but I'm not aware of anything other than anecdotal evidence even for that.

I realize that most of the guys on this forum don't care if they "kill" the cat on their bikes, but doing so on your car or truck can be a problem.  The OBDII system checks the exhaust before and after the cat, and killing the cat will result in setting a code and illuminating the Malfunction Indicator Lamp, otherwise known as the check engine light.  This will cause a failure to pass emissions checks which are required in many places to get your vehicle registration renewed, like around where I live.  So dumping an unnecessary additive in the oil that is known to kill cats could wind up costing a whole lot more than what you pay for the additive, if you know what I mean.


Jerry
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pkl

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Re: Synthetic vs. standard oil
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2011, 06:03:51 PM »

Thanks, what I thought and appreciate the knowledgeable responses.
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