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[Scrrem]

Well just put my cherry in for it's 10,000 mile service.  I mentioned to the mechanic that my bike has lost about a quart of oil since my 5,000 mile service. He went and got a spark plug wrench and pulled both plugs.  It wasn't hard to tell what was going to come out of his mouth next.   "You need new valve guide seals"  After reading the posts on this subject, I was not totally caught off-guard.  The mechanic told me its a warranty job and that the new valve guide material is supposed to be much better.  Has any anyone had any issues with the new seals or will I be doing this again in 10,000 miles?
Scrrem

[Twolanerider]

A quart in 5000 miles?  That's all it's "lost?"  No way I'd open a motor to fix a problem that isn't.  Especially when it means letting a Harley shop do it.....

[HUBBARD]

A quart in 5000 miles?  That's all it's "lost?"  [highlight]No way I'd open a motor to fix a problem that isn't.[/highlight]  Especially when it means letting a Harley shop do it.....

I concur with that assessment. ;)Later--HUBBARD

[hd-dude]

A quart in 5000 miles?  That's all it's "lost?"  No way I'd open a motor to fix a problem that isn't.  Especially when it means letting a Harley shop do it.....

Sounds like the stealer is trying to get some warranty work that is not really needed. Let it be!

[WVULTRA]

I agree that a quart in 5,000 miles is not excessive.

I "did" have the oil consumption issue with the '05 FLHRI; and it's my understanding the excessive oil consumption was due to faulty valve stem seals on '05 and later 88A and 88B motors:

Warranty and Service Procedures
• Any individual 18094-02 valve seals in your inventory may be used on Middle-Weight
Powertrain repairs.
• Current engine gasket kits may be used on 2004 - 2006 Sportster and 2003 - 2006
Buell engines.
• Current gasket kits (top end p/n 17052-99B and engine p/n 17053-99A) may also be
used on 2004 and earlier Twin Cam 88/88B engines without any special steps.
• When using current gasket kits (top end p/n 17052-99B and engine p/n 17053-99A) on
2005 and 2006 Twin Cam 88/88B models discard the 18094-02 valve seals included
and use part number 18094-02A in their place, and the included seal protector during
installation

 [smiley=drink.gif]

[Scrrem]

Yes, I would aggree that a quart every 5,000 is not excessive......but  I had a 99 Wide Glide with over 50,000 miles on it and added no oil.  The plugs that came out of that motor were not oil fowled as these plugs were after 5,000 miles.  I hate to have the motor tore apart but I can only see this problem getting worse with age and miles.

[Twolanerider]

Tear it down if you need to to ease any misplaced worry or concern.  But what everyone is suggesting is that a quart of oil in 5000 miles is simply not a problem, an error or any kind of deficiency.  There is nothing broken (as a result of that level of oil consumption) to fix.  And saying the prior bike never used a quart in 50,000 is a chimera and no actual comparison as you certainly didn't run it 50,000 miles between oil changes.

A motor consumes a bit of oil in normal use.  It's supposed to.  A quart in 5000 is not too much.  A quart in 5000 also simply could not have fouled spark plugs.

The only way you're seeing a truly fouled (as opposed to simply a dark) spark plug would be if you actually were having almost zero oil consumption for most of that 5000 mile run and then suddenly a seal got damaged/broke/whatever and you used most of the lost quart in just the last bit of this 5000 mile run.  When regularly checking the oil did the level go down incrementally during this time?  Or did you suddenly start losing it more quickly at the end?

[grc]

Scrrem,

Something sounds a little fishy about this.  As Twolane mentioned, you need to know if this quart disappeared gradually over the 5k miles (absolutely normal if it did), or did you have no consumption for 4k and then used a quart in the last 1k miles.  Makes a huge difference.

Now for the fishy part - the MoCo will not authorize warranty repairs for oil consumption unless a controlled test is run first.  There is a copy of their policy and procedure actually posted on this site somewhere detailing how the dealer is to perform the test and document the results.  So the gentleman who told you that you needed valve stem seals could be right, or he could be having a slow month and figured he could increase his income with an unnecessary warranty repair and fudged consumption test.  If it were me, I would run a controlled test first before I let someone go inside my engine.  Real easy to do, basically fill to normal full level (hot) and record mileage.  If you prefer to check the oil cold, let it set overnight and then mark the dipstick (a light line scratched with the edge of a flat file works well for this).  Check the oil level at regular intervals, say every 200 miles, measure and record the variation from the line on the dipstick.  Do not add oil unless the level drops below the add mark, and always check under the same conditions (hot versus hot, cold versus cold) that you used for the first check.  If you have a real consumption problem, it should be evident in the first 1000 miles.  BTW - plugs can also be black from an over-rich mixture, or a too cold plug.  Were the plugs black and wet, with oil on the threads, or were they black and dry?  

Jerry

[Scrrem]

Towlanerider/GRC,
Yes, I guess I mis-stated.  What I meant to say is my Dyna never used oil this manner and the the plugs always came out with only a light gray porcelain, not dark and wet like these plugs are. Granted, the oil changes were at 2500, not 5000 for the Syn3.  I checked the oil about every 1,000 miles or so and the loss has been incremental, it did not start all at once. The plugs were in a similar condition at the 5,000 mile service, not quite as fouled.  I had thought maybe breakin took longer for some reason and did not concern my self about it at 5000.  But at 10,000 miles and the plugs still were oily wet with the oil going up the threads.  Not sure what to say about the deal mechanic.  He pulled the plugs and told me right on the spot that the valve guide seals were fault and to schedule a warranty appointment to get them replaced.  I dont put it in until mid July, so I have some time.  I will take GRC's advice and start my own closely monitored test and see how much I am really using.

[DCFIREMANN]

I really hate to be the bearer of bad news but there is a TSB on these for 2005 model year. It is not a matter of IF BUT WHEN!!!!! If you have an 05 I will give you 10 to 1 odds that yours will go bad before you get 50k on your bike. The ones being seen now have less that 20k. The dealers around here are starting to see them daily! They made a change in 05 and then again in 06.

Jerry I have to agree with you on what they are suposed to do before changing them ( the controlled test) but I disagree that a mechanic is looking for Warranty Work at this time of year. First off no Harley Mechanic working flat rate wants to do WARRANTY WORK!!!! It doesn't pay CHIT!!!! If the bike is under warranty I would let them do it and get it over with.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[grc]

I really hate to be the bearer of bad news but there is a TSB on these for 2005 model year. It is not a matter of IF BUT WHEN!!!!! If you have an 05 I will give you 10 to 1 odds that yours will go bad before you get 50k on your bike. The ones being seen now have less that 20k. The dealers around here are starting to see them daily! They made a change in 05 and then again in 06.

Jerry I have to agree with you on what they are suposed to do before changing them ( the controlled test) but I disagree that a mechanic is looking for Warranty Work at this time of year. First off no Harley Mechanic working flat rate wants to do WARRANTY WORK!!!! It doesn't pay CHIT!!!! If the bike is under warranty I would let them do it and get it over with.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

DAWG,

I agree - there have been a lot of seal failures on '05's, and the seals were redesigned (again) for '06.  I just haven't seen or heard of anyone using only 1 quart in 5000 miles with oil fouled plugs.  No vehicle manufacturer I know of, bike or car, considers 1 quart in 5k miles to be excessive consumption.  BTW - if I understand the change correctly, it's not just the seal that changed, but also the install method. A special install tool is involved also to prevent any damage to the seal.  

All of that having been said, I also agree that if the dealer is willing to install the new seals at no cost, even if the consumption doesn't exceed Harley's standards, and you don't mind having them going into the engine, then by all means go for it.  

As for your statement that no Harley mechanic wants to do warranty work because it doesn't pay well, I beg to differ.  If you are talking about the top one or two techs in the place, sure they would rather work on customer pay upgrades or repairs where they aren't limited to charging the flat rate hours in the Harley book.  But many places also have new, relatively inexperienced folks who don't normally get those plum jobs, and warranty work beats the heck out of no work or just doing 1k and 5k services.  I've seen it first hand in the auto business in my "service rep" years, and I've spent a little time in bike shops observing similar behavior.  And strangely enough, not all H-D shops are extremely busy this year, unlike the normal situation for the past decade or more.  I recently visited my local dealer to have them do a Stage 1 Race download, assuming I would have to make an appointment, and they did it on the spot.  While this was going on, two other folks pulled up and were able to get their bikes in for repairs while they waited also.  This is a well respected small dealership that would have had at least a two week or longer backlog in previous years.  Around these parts, it appears that the total business has slowed, not just bike sales.

Jerry    

[DCFIREMANN]

Jerry I am suprised that the dealer wasn't busy. They are around here. I am doing a FLHTCI front bearing and seal change along with a 5 k service Sunday morning in the shop. The owner took the bike to the local dealer and was told the soonest opening was July 8th. So I guess it's a little different around here.

As far as a mech doing warranty. My main man works flat rate and turns over 80k a year doing so. He is considered one of the best not only in this area but at the MOCO also. He hates it as it just doesn't pay him enough. He does it but man can he cry!!!!!!

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[syclone]

In 05 H-D went to a beehive valve spring with a different diameter valve stem and hence different seal. These new seals turned out to be a problem and have been updated..all twin cam 88 motors.

Our 103 heads have the double wound springs and the same seals as used on the Stock SE heads or the twin cam heads of old. Although anything is possible..I would be surprized if have a seal problem..and suddenly at 10,000 miles
So dont be lured into the "ya the 05's had deffective seals" story...your bike was simply not built with those style seals..