Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Author Topic: What causes lifters to fail  (Read 15178 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

hd-51

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18
  • 2 eagles 1 garage
What causes lifters to fail
« on: January 31, 2012, 09:52:37 AM »

2001 SERG rebuilt at 48000, at 96000 lifter goes taking cams out hopefully that is all. What causes this and how can it be avoided. >:(
Logged

HD Street Performance

  • Vendor
  • 2.5K CVO Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3133
Re: What causes lifters to fail
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2012, 10:55:33 AM »

Use premium lifters, use premium oil changed at proper intervals, keep the pressure on the lifter reasonable, that comes from proper valve spring pressure, valve train weight and camshaft design.
Logged

sadunbar

  • 10K CVO Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11416
  • EBCM # Stealth - SSBS # 1.1 - SoA # Z&E2525 .01%
    • IL


    • CVO1: 2007 FLHTCUSE2
    • CVO2: 2000 FXR4
Re: What causes lifters to fail
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2012, 11:25:58 AM »

2001 SERG rebuilt at 48000, at 96000 lifter goes taking cams out hopefully that is all. What causes this and how can it be avoided. >:(

Sounds like your motor is stock?  Generally speaking, the weak link in lifters are the roller bearings in the wheel.  If your motor is stock - and assuming no other internal failures have occurred (like cam chain tensioners degrading) regular oil/filter changes usually are sufficient maintenance to preserve lifter life.
Logged
2007 Screamin Eagle Ultra Classic - Light Candy Cherry and Black Ice
Screamin Eagle 120r
Revolution Performance EMS
Fuel Moto Jackpot headpipes and 4.5" Pro Touring Mufflers
HPI 55mm Throttle Body w/5.3 injectors
BDL clutch w/VPC92T
Traxxion AK-20
Legend Air Suspension
Brembo Brake Calipers/Rotors
Garmin Zumo
575 Chubby's
Bushtec Quantum

hd-51

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18
  • 2 eagles 1 garage
Re: What causes lifters to fail
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2012, 11:39:17 AM »

Bike is far from stock. Fueling lifters, 570 ss cams, 10.5 to 1 pistons, head and tb worked, ss crank. Oil is amsoil changed at least every 2500 miles. Short of opening up the motor from time to time to check for these type of failures that is why I asked if there is a way of telling ahead of time. Thanks for the input.
Logged

Twolanerider

  • 25K CVO Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 50583
  • EBCM #1.5 Emeritus DSP # ? Critter Gawker #?
    • MO


    • CVO1: 2000 Triple Red Screamin' Eagle Road Glide
    • CVO2: 2002 Candy Brandywine Screamin' Eagle Road King
    • CVO3: 1999 Arresting Red FXR2
Re: What causes lifters to fail
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2012, 12:09:57 PM »

Bike is far from stock. Fueling lifters, 570 ss cams, 10.5 to 1 pistons, head and tb worked, ss crank. Oil is amsoil changed at least every 2500 miles. Short of opening up the motor from time to time to check for these type of failures that is why I asked if there is a way of telling ahead of time. Thanks for the input.

Short of physically checking the only tell tale is the sound. 

Which Feuling lifters?  Their standard HP+ lifter has always seemed a good and long lived part.  Their more expensive "race" version has seen a few failures just within the group here.
Logged

sadunbar

  • 10K CVO Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11416
  • EBCM # Stealth - SSBS # 1.1 - SoA # Z&E2525 .01%
    • IL


    • CVO1: 2007 FLHTCUSE2
    • CVO2: 2000 FXR4
Re: What causes lifters to fail
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2012, 12:15:12 PM »

Bike is far from stock. Fueling lifters, 570 ss cams, 10.5 to 1 pistons, head and tb worked, ss crank. Oil is amsoil changed at least every 2500 miles. Short of opening up the motor from time to time to check for these type of failures that is why I asked if there is a way of telling ahead of time. Thanks for the input.

Well - that changes things.   ::)   I pull my camchest apart every winter to inspect everything.  Usually everything is fine, but when it isn't, it's generally lifters that get replaced.  Never because of a failure, but because of signs of potential future failure, such as rough spots in the roller rotation or excessive looseness of the roller. Perhaps overkill on my part to check so often, but then again, it's a simple check, and I've never experienced a catastrophic lifter failure.  I run S&S lifters, but also like Woods directional lifters and Feuling standard HP+ lifters.
Logged
2007 Screamin Eagle Ultra Classic - Light Candy Cherry and Black Ice
Screamin Eagle 120r
Revolution Performance EMS
Fuel Moto Jackpot headpipes and 4.5" Pro Touring Mufflers
HPI 55mm Throttle Body w/5.3 injectors
BDL clutch w/VPC92T
Traxxion AK-20
Legend Air Suspension
Brembo Brake Calipers/Rotors
Garmin Zumo
575 Chubby's
Bushtec Quantum

Twolanerider

  • 25K CVO Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 50583
  • EBCM #1.5 Emeritus DSP # ? Critter Gawker #?
    • MO


    • CVO1: 2000 Triple Red Screamin' Eagle Road Glide
    • CVO2: 2002 Candy Brandywine Screamin' Eagle Road King
    • CVO3: 1999 Arresting Red FXR2
Re: What causes lifters to fail
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2012, 12:52:32 PM »

Well - that changes things.   ::)   I pull my camchest apart every winter to inspect everything.  Usually everything is fine, but when it isn't, it's generally lifters that get replaced.  Never because of a failure, but because of signs of potential future failure, such as rough spots in the roller rotation or excessive looseness of the roller. Perhaps overkill on my part to check so often, but then again, it's a simple check, and I've never experienced a catastrophic lifter failure.  I run S&S lifters, but also like Woods directional lifters and Feuling standard HP+ lifters.


And what else are you going to do with the bike.  It's usually freaking cold up there.  By the way, it's 60 something here today and I'm playing a little hookie (hookey, hooky  :nixweiss: ?).
Logged

HILLSIDECYCLE.COM

  • Banned
  • 1K CVO Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2085
Re: What causes lifters to fail
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2012, 07:25:25 AM »

2001 SERG rebuilt at 48000, at 96000 lifter goes taking cams out hopefully that is all. What causes this and how can it be avoided. >:(


May consider pulling/inspecting them @ 25,000 as service bulletins reccomended, back in the Evo days.
Scott
Logged

Bigjim1661

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 24
  • Can you curl a harley?
Re: What causes lifters to fail
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2012, 11:35:59 PM »

We use the lifters from AMS and we have had great success. Here is the text from their website...

From 1999 - 2001, Johnson-Hylift supplied lifters to Harley-Davidson...
Johnson-Hylift designed and produced a special piston and valve body
to work across the temp ranges and varying oil psi typically encountered
on a Harley engine. Since 2001, in a cost-savings move, HD has used
Delphi hydraulic lifters, which explains Harley's p/n change from
18538-99 to 18538-99A, and after some problems, a second Delphi lifter
was used, p/n 18538-99B. However, Delphi still did not use a 0.655"
hi-volume / hi-pressure plunger and valve body like those specifically
designed for Harley by Johnson-Hylift. After some research AMS learned
Delphi 18538-99B lifters bleed down rather quickly due to the
higher engine temps and heavy valve spring pressure found on most
Harley Twin Cam's.  The oil reservoir inside the lifter is too small,
allowing the lifter to clatter, and likely causes many Twin-Cam bikes
to be noisy. Note: ALL lifters bleed off during operation and even
more-so when the bikes sits, engine off.


Tom at AMS has known Chet Starron, who owns Johnson-Hylift, for many
years. Chet put Tom in touch with the original engineer of the earlier HD
18538-99 lifters, which don't seem to be as noisy as those made by Delphi.
Working with Hylift' engineering staff, AMS modified a Johnson-Hylift lifter,
to accept a very precise check valve, a larger plunger that allows more oil
reservoir volume, and a ball seat that fits much tighter, yet has an oil feed
groove to allow more upper rocker box oiling. The result was a significantly
improved lifter, with a much bigger internal oil reservoir that will keep the
lifter/pushrod from bleeding too much and bottoming out. The bigger
reservoir maintains a cushion of oil inside. The improved ball seat ensures
better top-end rocker oiling and better pushrod tip fit.... all of which makes
for a quieter lifter.




AMS and Hylift have continued to develop this lifter, and today, we offer
3 versions of the AMS-Hylift lifter for Harley Twin Cam applications:


AMS A2313S  for stock and performance street bikes. $29.95 each


AMS A2313R  for all out, hi-rev racing applications. $39.95


AMS A2313-002 this is a 0.002" oversized version of the AMS2313, for use
in cases with worn lifter bores. $39.95


We recommend using Andrews adjust pushrods, or stock non-adjustable
pushrods with them... however other brand adjustable pushrods will work
too. These lifters have a wide preload range, which makes for easy
installation if adjustable push rods are used.

There are many other things that can cause "lifter" noise - it can be coil
bind, rocker to spring cap interference, spring cap to stems / guide length
interference, poor oiling, high lift cam profile causing loft, overheating motor,
wrong oil viscosity for ambient temperatures, aerated oil, low oil pressure,
gear drive backlash, worn drive chains, etc. However if you're convinced
you've eliminate all of these things, and the lifters still rattle, then the next
step is to a set AMS-Hylift Lifters. With their larger oil reservoirs, they will
usually lessen or eliminate the noise.

For more info give us a call at 1-800-210-8675.
Logged

HILLSIDECYCLE.COM

  • Banned
  • 1K CVO Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2085
Re: What causes lifters to fail
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2012, 07:09:26 AM »

S&S or the Wood directional lifters, are what we gravitate to.
Never any issues with either, from what we've seen. :)
Scott
Logged

North Star

  • CANADA- Love it or Leave it
  • 1K CVO Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1678
    • ON


    • CVO1: 2009 CVO Road Glide- Orange/Black
    • CVO2: 2015 Ducati Monter 821- Star White
Re: What causes lifters to fail
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2012, 08:32:12 AM »

I have a dumb question- when replacing cams only and not removing the heads, is there any extra work/dissasembly involved in replacing the lifters as well?
Logged
2009 Screamin' Eagle Road Glide- Electric Orange/Vivid Black
GMR 113", GMR 600 cams, Fullac DX & Kuryakyn Crushers, SE Heavy Breather, tuned by "Dyno Dave" Stoddart
Jagg 10 row fan assisted oil cooler
Axeo Legends/Ohlins 3-3/True Track front and rear
C&C Fastback seat w/orange flame stitching & a Le Pera Maverick
PYO Monkey Bars- 10"
Freedom Shields 12" light grey
Hawg Wired "six pack"amp/speakers, Iron Cross ipod interface
HD Daymaker headlights
Detachable King Tour Pak in Electric Orange

Boatman

  • 2.5K CVO Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4816
  • FLHRSEI.ORG

    • CVO1: 2014 CVO Limited
    • CVO2: 2010 SEUC-accident victim-gone
    • CVO3: 2005 SEEG-traded on 2010
Re: What causes lifters to fail
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2012, 09:09:59 AM »

I have a dumb question- when replacing cams only and not removing the heads, is there any extra work/dissasembly involved in replacing the lifters as well?

Take the 4 bolts out of each lifter base  holdown block and the lifters are easily removed.  The 2 inside bolts (next to the cylinder fins) can be a pain to get out-no room.  Hope this helps.

Since you are replacing the cams, the pushrods are already removed.
Logged

captdave221

  • Junior CVO Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 84
Re: What causes lifters to fail
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2012, 03:44:03 PM »

I was wondering if lifter failures are related to inner cam bearing failure also? I have seen the front lifter fail (frt cyl exhaust) and the inner cam bearing was worn thru the outer race and into the case. Which happened 1st? The chicken or the egg?
Logged

dlaws01

  • 1K CVO Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1502
  • Rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulltion

    • CVO1: 105th Anniversary FXSTSSE2
Re: What causes lifters to fail
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2012, 05:52:14 PM »

Sometimes failures like this can be detected early before parts fail by performing an engine oil analysis.  Kits are available online and the lab will provide analysis of wear metals in the oil and can be compared to previous samples taken.  For example, high silicone numbers might be caused by induction air leaks or high chrome or lead could be from potential bearing failures, etc.  Kits cost about $20 and you get results within a week.  I use them on aircraft I maintain and on my bike.  Cheap preventive measures IMHO.
Logged
Jesus is Lord

hd-51

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18
  • 2 eagles 1 garage
Re: What causes lifters to fail
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2012, 09:59:13 AM »

Got the bike back from my guy, $1500 in parts, $600 in labor. Everything in cam chest is new, went with the same cams 570ss gear drive, Feuling cam chest kit. bike runs grea,t nice and smooth.
Ed Dahir at Dyno Diffenence checked my tune and did a great job at getting the best out of my bike, he takes the time to do the little things right, Thanks Ed. I will have to learn how to pull the push rods out and check those lifters myself. Thanks for the imput, this site is great.
Chris
Logged
 

Page created in 0.259 seconds with 25 queries.