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Author Topic: ECM vs Aftermarket Tuner  (Read 3415 times)

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glens

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Re: ECM vs Aftermarket Tuner
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2012, 07:26:40 PM »

What I am wanting to know is What Functions regarding Tuning does and aftermarket Tuner provide, that the ECM does not.
It's difficult to explain to someone what exactly the tuner can do, if you do not know yourself.

You might get better information if you clarify your terms a little.  What do you mean by "aftermarket Tuner"?  Technically, anything marketed by anyone other than H-D is "aftermarket", and this encompasses everything from piggyback units (things that plug into the wiring harness, usually between the harness and the ECM), to devices with which to reprogram the stock ECM, to complete replacement ECMs (like TMax, DTT).

Naturally, the OEM ECM "provides" everything, but it might not be correct for any particular situation or combination of parts thrown onto the bike after it left the dealer the first time.  No piggyback will bring anything extra to the table, nor will any reprogrammer, while a replacement ECM might if it trades, say, MAP-based fueling and/or ignition timing for extended closed-loop coverage.

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Can you balance each cylinder, ie Firing pressure, Fuel pressure and F/A Ratio?

With the second and third possibilities I listed above, you can do all of those things apart from fuel pressure.  Nothing will alter that except for a completely different fuel pressure regulator in the fuel tank if you want to increase it, or I suppose inside or outside the tank if you want to decrease it (though excess pressure would have to be returned to the tank...).

Depending on the complexity, and that varies widely, a piggyback controller might be able to perform anywhere from all those tasks (except fuel pressure) to just some of those tasks.

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By doing the above, can you control exhaust temps?

You can control exhaust temperature by altering either the fuel mixture, the spark timing, or both.  Again, the reprogrammers and replacement ECMs can handily do this while the piggybacks can variously perform those operations.

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What exactly does adjusting those "Pots" do for you?

I haven't a clue what you're referring to.  It sounds like simple controls on a simple piggyback fuel only controller like an early-generation Dobeck or its various other incarnations.

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What extra Bells & Whistles does a High Dollar Tuner have over a moderately priced Tuner?

That question is much too vague to answer.

For your situation, your piggyback unit is a decent way to go for the money, no doubt about it.  You'd have to invest a fair sum to truly upgrade.

Your neighbor has what is currently "state of the art" for a Harley with his closed-loop Delphi engine control package.  If he's running around with intake breather and exhaust changes (especially if it's more than just replacement mufflers) without having reprogrammed his ECM in some way, he's at a minimum leaving a lot on the table and at a maximum bordering on foolishness.  How has he determined he's at 13:1 "AFR"?  Was it measured or is he merely taking someone's word for it?  At any rate, that's a bit rich for "cruising" and a bit lean for "hammering".

I'm a firm believer that if you've got a Delphi ECM (of any generation) on a Harley, the absolute best thing to do is get a kit with which to reprogram the ECM to match your specific needs, and my favorite is the TTS by mastertune.net.  Piggyback controllers are inelegant at best and only go downhill from there in my estimation.
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Dead_Reckoning

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Re: ECM vs Aftermarket Tuner
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2012, 07:42:36 PM »

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I haven't a clue what you're referring to.  It sounds like simple controls on a simple piggyback fuel only controller like an early-generation Dobeck or its various other incarnations.
Potentiometer ( /pɵˌtɛnʃiˈɒmɨtər/), informally, a pot, is a three-terminal resistor with a sliding contact that forms an adjustable voltage divider.[1] If only two terminals are used (one side and the wiper), it acts as a variable resistor or rheostat. Potentiometers are commonly used to control electrical devices
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glens

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Re: ECM vs Aftermarket Tuner
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2012, 08:59:21 PM »

Hahaha!  I know what a potentiometer is.  I was referring to "the pots" on what?  You didn't say...
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Dead_Reckoning

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Re: ECM vs Aftermarket Tuner
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2012, 10:05:56 AM »

Hahaha!  I know what a potentiometer is.  I was referring to "the pots" on what?  You didn't say...

Aren't those adjustment buttons of the tuner pots?

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glens

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Re: ECM vs Aftermarket Tuner
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2012, 11:21:19 AM »

Adjustment buttons on what?  I can't answer the question one way or another if I don't know to what you're referring.  Some of the older Power Commanders had some buttons, some of the Dobeck (et. al.) had some screw-pots, etc.  What piggyback unit and what vintage are you asking about?
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cchawg

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Re: ECM vs Aftermarket Tuner
« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2012, 12:38:36 PM »

After buying and installing three PC IIIs on three different bikes, I decided in fall of 2010 to try Zippers' new ThunderMax Autotuner on my new 2010 FLHXSE.  And I now believe a ThunderMax beats any other tuner out there -- mainly because it is constantly adjusting the map to your riding style.  My 110 CI engine is running more smoothly than ever.  The throttle response is amazing (roll it on and hang on).  And my mpg went from 35 (stock ECM) to 40-42 mpg (ThunderMax).

Yes, you can buy an Autotuner add-on to your PC III, which itself is an add-on to your stock ECM.  ThunderMax Autotuner completely replaces your stock ECM, which I put in my saddlebag in case I ever need it out somewhere.  But after two years, I don't think the TMax is going to let me down out on the road.

Yes, with a PC III, you have to get a good human tech guy who knows how to tune it, or you're outa luck.  I've had three different tuners tune a PC III for me, and each got a different result.  The worst was the local HD dealer.  His expert engine tech just didn't tune enough bikes to really learn how.  The best PC tuners, I've found, are those guys at the bike rallies who do nothing but tune bikes at a different rally every week in riding season.  But I'll never bother to pay a tuner again!

Let me give you one quick example of the advantages of a ThunderMax:  A month ago, my 2010 FLHXSE got hard to start.  Felt like auto compressive release values weren't opening.  Then it started dying at idle.  I decided to do a firmware upgrade in the ThunderMax module and see if that didn't straighten things out.  (Zippers comes out with a new firmware upgrade about twice a year, which you can download into your bike's module easily and free.)  Found a new firmware upgrade dated October 2011 and downloaded it in about five minutes with my laptop plugged in to my bike's TMax module.  Now starts quickly as usual. Never dies at idle.  Throttle response is back to amazing.

So I decided to learn how to autotune, as the TMax is designed to do.  After riding 200 miles, I hooked up my laptop to the bike's TM module again, clicked on Learned Offsets and found the TM had adjusted my basemap 330 times during the ride.  As instructed by the TM Tuner software on my laptop, I told it to incorporate all 330 offsets into my permanent basemap, making it a custom base map just for me and my bike.  After another 150 miles, I repeated the Learned Offsets and incorporated them again, except the second time it had only adjusted my custom base map 140 times, all less then 10% adjustments (increasing or decreasing fuel to maximize the air fuel ratio at each RPM point).  That's doing the same thing as a tuner would do on a PC III, except he would be making just a few adjustments (not 330 or 140) that he thought would improve the bike's performance.  The TM is making a lot more adjustments and based on MY OWN RIDING STYLE.

Then I figured out why my bike got hard to start -- and was dying at idle.  When I decided a few weeks ago to work on an electrical wiring issue, I pulled the main fuse.  That killed the settings in my TM.  Once I re-initialized my TM (the manual tells you how and warns you gotta do it if you pull the main fuse or change the battery), turning the ignition off and on so many times, and then letting the bike idle for 15 seconds, everything's back to normal.  Hope all this helps some.
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glens

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Re: ECM vs Aftermarket Tuner
« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2012, 01:07:12 PM »

After buying and installing three PC IIIs on three different bikes, I decided in fall of 2010 to try Zippers' new ThunderMax Autotuner on my new 2010 FLHXSE.  And I now believe a ThunderMax beats any other tuner out there -- mainly because it is constantly adjusting the map to your riding style.

I'll agree with you that a T-Max will work better than a Power Commander but you have not tried reprogramming the stock ECM yet, so I can't agree with you that the T-Max beats any other tuner.

The stock ECM, if '05 and newer, can run in closed-loop and can be used itself to get the engine dialed in when used with a temporary interface between the ECM and a personal computer.  Thereafter it will also "continually make adjustments" while you ride.  While the T-Max can be used closed-loop throughout the entire operating range of the engine and the stock ECM cannot, the stock ECM uses MAP information for at least the spark timing and fueling, and depending on the application, even the VE tables!  The stock ECM also uses the spark secondary circuit to monitor combustion and can react to spark knock by pulling timing for a while.

There may be engine/parts combinations that don't work well closed-loop with the stock ECM, or with MAP-based control tables, but in the case of the former the T-Max won't work well either.

Next time it would behoove you to try a system with which to reprogram the stock ECM.
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