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[ace4059]

After reading about the problems "porthole" is having w/ the MoCo re: his bent valve and MoCo saying it isn't warranted due to overrevving(possibly due to engine mods, SERT etc.) and all of the posts regarding Syn 3 oil vs Mobil 1 vs Amsoil etc., I  had a little talk w/ my local service rep. I asked him if I changed to Mobil 1 at my 1000 mile service on my new '07 SE Ultra if it could possibly cause any warranty issues down the road. He said, "Let's say you have engine problems and HD inspects your engine and tests the oil and sees that it isn't Syn 3, then that hypothetically gives the Moco an "out" and they could deny my warranty!" I asked how they could do that if I am running an oil that meets or exceed manufactures specs. The local service rep said that Syn3 is the only synthetic oil that is "specially" formulated for HD motors and they could say the other oils may not have a specific ingredient or the specific required formulation to protect HD motors.

He said he has never seen it happen, but he said it is certainly a possibility! He said as long as they can do the repair locally and not have to send the motor to HD, his shop has a "don't ask don't tell policy" and as far as he is concerned HD doesn't need to know what oil I'm running. BUT, he said if the motor goes back to the MoCo and they test it(or possibly check my service records) and find it isn't Syn3, that could open up a whole can of worms that may not be worth risking. He said it is up to me if I want to take that chance. After hearing about "porthole's" problems, I may just leave my bike stock and run Syn3 during the first 2 years and then do what I want after the warranty is up.

Any thoughts or comments?

[RJ749]

Lots of threads out there but the MoCo has sent a letter to Amsoil addressing this.

The oil does not specifically void the warranty, but you could make the case that some dip weed is going to make a federal case of it and not warrant a repair.

When that happens I'd like to be in on the class action lawsuit.

Here's the oil paper again:  http://www.xlrator.com/personal/oil/Oil%20and%20the%20Harley%20Davidson%20Motorcycle.pdf

"The use of a different brand of fluid does not void the one-year, unlimited mileage warranty unless it can be confirmed that the use of such products was the cause of the failure."  Most oil companies would defend their product against an acqusation that it was the cause of a failure.  In my 31 years in the new car industry, I have not seen a manufacturer point to oil failure as the problem in an engine failure other than obvious abuse cases and then it wasn't the oil it was the lack of it or maintainance records.

Here's the letter link:  http://www.oilsandlube.com/HDLetter.htm

[jdracing]

The only quesiton is whether one wants to roll over and buy that line of horsechit or not.  Google The Magnusson Moss Warranty Act and read a bit about it.  The bottom line is that unless Harley gives the oil away, they cannot condition warranty coverage on use of their name-brand oil.

It comes down to whether one wants to allow themselves to be "legally abused" by a manufacturer who decides not to follow the law unless forced to by a lawsuit or an  attorney general picking up the cause on behalf of the public.  Please understand that I'm not saying that's Harley's M.O. in the least.  

But I do see companies every day that play those odds--if they have 1000 warranty claims for a known problem, is it more cost effective to deny coverage and take the risk that 3 of the customers will actually do something about it and sue, rather than pay out on the other 997?   They figure 2 of the 3 will settle for small amounts, and if they get hit on the 3rd one they're still money ahead.  On products like tv's and other consumer items, people generally don't get injured or suffer property damage if warranty coverage is denied, so it's purely an economic decision.  Of course, the negative PR they may receive also plays into it.  But it often has little to do with simply making the customer happy.  Sometimes it does, but not always.

I have never heard of Harley denying warranty coverage based on oil selection.   And I personally don't think they could do so within the bounds of the law.  Your dealer's advice is to avoid the fight in the first instance, and don't use anything but Harley products.  Not that he has a financial incentive to make that recommendation    But just be careful if you decide to put Custom Chrome mirrors on the bike.  That may be the reason used to deny coverage for that bent valve.

OK, cynical rant off.  

[Twolanerider]

Harley may be arrogant, hubristic, insanely insecure, occasionally stupid, often asinine and routinely simply incredibly dumb where consumer relations are concerned on the service side of the business (especially).  But they're not going to step over that particular line of mandating that their own oil be used to maintain a vehicle warranty.

[Midnight Rider]

Harley may be arrogant, hubristic, insanely insecure, occasionally stupid, often asinine and routinely simply incredibly dumb where consumer relations are concerned on the service side of the business (especially).  But they're not going to step over that particular line of mandating that their own oil be used to maintain a vehicle warranty.

Like Don says...not even Harley is stupid enough to even attempt to go there with a warranty claim...there is so much hard data backing up the fact that syn3 is an inferior product, they would not want to even think about having that come out publicly.  Their "blend" probably consists of Wesson Oil, Crisco, and the remnants of what's found in the oil bottles people throw away...plus a little they recycle from Express Oil Change.  From personal experience, they do NOT want to use your product if you take the bike to them for regular service...so that's another pissing contest to get into with the service department.  I'll just change it myself, go to the dealer for things I don't feel comfortable doing myself, keep good records, and hope it never comes to a battle...but over something like this oil business, I would take them to the mat.

[RJ749]

Like Don says...not even Harley is stupid enough to even attempt to go there with a warranty claim...there is so much hard data backing up the fact that syn3 is an inferior product, they would not want to even think about having that come out publicly. [highlight] Their "blend" probably consists of Wesson Oil, Crisco, and the remnants of what's found in the oil bottles people throw away...plus a little they recycle from Express Oil Change.[/highlight]  From personal experience, they do NOT want to use your product if you take the bike to them for regular service...so that's another pissing contest to get into with the service department.  I'll just change it myself, go to the dealer for things I don't feel comfortable doing myself, keep good records, and hope it never comes to a battle...but over something like this oil business, I would take them to the mat.

TC, tell us how you really feel, you left out  [smiley=soapbox.gif]

My Mob 1 partially on your recommendation is doing just fine and I ride in confidance and sleep well at night knowing I'm oiling my ride with a great product and the Syn3 nearly laid down on me in the heat.

[Midnight Rider]

Squoooze me, Roger...I can get get on the box every once in a while...I just wiped the foam off my fingers  

I am tickled to death with the Mobil 1 as well, and feel confident every time I go for a ride, regardless of the temp. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

[grc]

....................................................... had a little talk w/ my local service rep. I asked him if I changed to Mobil 1 at my 1000 mile service on my new '07 SE Ultra if it could possibly cause any warranty issues down the road. He said, "Let's say you have engine problems and HD inspects your engine and tests the oil and sees that it isn't Syn 3, then that hypothetically gives the Moco an "out" and they could deny my warranty!" I asked how they could do that if I am running an oil that meets or exceed manufactures specs. The local service rep said that Syn3 is the only synthetic oil that is[highlight] "specially" formulated for HD motors [/highlight]and they could say the other oils may not have a specific ingredient or the specific required formulation to protect HD motors. ..........................................................................

Any thoughts or comments?

For those who are new to the world of H-D, this is the same load of crap they used to throw around when they were pushing HD360 dino oil (before they were dragged into the 20th century and came out with their own synthetic).  Those of us who knew better had been running synthetics for years, for the better high temp protection.  And yes, I meant 20th, not 21st, century.  They haven't made it to the 21st yet!

The ONLY way they can void the warranty is by PROVING the oil failed and thus caused your engine/trans/primary failure.  I'd love to see them try that one, and have to take on one of the giant oil companies' experts in a toe-to-toe, no bullchit, no supposition, PROVE IT lawsuit.  Trust me, even the MoCo isn't that stupid.  

I've been in the auto industry for 34 years, 6 of which were spent directly dealing with customers and dealers on technical and warranty issues, and I can tell you for a fact that no reputable manufacturer would even think about trying to void a warranty based on the brand of oil the customer used.  Motor oil is graded both for viscosity and API service rating, and any oil meeting the manufacturer's specs for those two ratings is acceptable and cannot be used as a basis for voiding a warranty.  As jd pointed out in a previous post, the ONLY way they can force you to use their brand of oil is to provide it free of charge.  I don't think you'll see the MoCo jump on that one any time soon.

Jerry

[lucky1]

Look at this site for free lube info.Tech pub.Evolution of Base Oil Technology. WWW.lubricantsuniversity.com

[VAZHOG]

If you don't use HD oil in your Harley, It will not start or run very well. [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif]