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[GtreetSlide]

a better tune should mean richer, .........., and most cases better mpg

Flies in the face of logic IMHO 

Omly if you assume an HD map is created for power and mpg; which it is not. A more efficient tune means giving the engine what it needs to be the most efficient. HD maps are desiged to pass EPA; not to be efficient...

[Doc 1]

Someone please tell me what a EPA Map is, tell me what a EPA Cam is......I read this all the time on Harley Forums so some one please define EPA Cams and Maps.
Honestly I doubt anyone can......but....if you think you can you probably could tell me what a full race cam is or a 3/4 race cam....I'm all ears.....
Doc

[Midnight Rider]

Someone please tell me what a EPA Map is, tell me what a EPA Cam is......I read this all the time on Harley Forums so some one please define EPA Cams and Maps.
Honestly I doubt anyone can......but....if you think you can you probably could tell me what a full race cam is or a 3/4 race cam....I'm all ears.....
Doc

Doc...wow, those are terms we threw around back in my short block Chevy days, a LONG time ago.  I think, loosely, it meant a high lift, or more radical cam (race cam), and a 3/4 was just somewhere between stock and that.

I would assume an EPA cam and map, I think, is just another term for a combination that would pass an EPA sniff test.  Obviously, the current 110 engine must pass a sniff test with the stock map.  But even a bone stock bike can be improved with a TTS and tune, as I am certain you are aware.

But, I would assume it possible to pass an EPA test with another combination?  You'd be the expert on that...

[Doc 1]

Good try Midnight..... , You hit it on the head when you say TERMS used because there are no such things like a EPA Map or a EPA Cam. Actually the Harley maps are quite rich in open loop, I see 12.5:1 AFR in several maps and that is super rich. The cruise area, where there is no real load on the bike, is running richer than Stoitch....so.....thinking or saying these AFR's are EPA is not correct...they are AFR ratios only. Harley passes the EPA standards by choking off the air going into the motor and restricting it on the exhaust side so the air flow through the motor is held back.....less air, less emissions and this is how they pass the EPA Standards. Once we open the intake and exhaust we get much more air movement through the motor and we all become a EPA violation. After dialing in the fuel for the new mass of air we have the AFR's are very much the same as they where when the bike was stock, however more air requires more fuel even though the AFR's are the same.....actually I even take away from the 12.5 in open loop because it's really not necessary to run the bike that rich in the fuel table. 
I just wanted you all to know the EPA isn't looking at AFR's....they are looking at emissions. More air, more immissions no matter what the AFR is set at. So understanding that makes the TERM EPA Map pretty silly now doesn't it.......
I'm not trying to step on anyones toes here, so please don't take it as that....I just think it's time to address this EPA Maps and Cams terms.
Doc

[GtreetSlide]

Good try Midnight..... , You hit it on the head when you say TERMS used because there are no such things like a EPA Map or a EPA Cam. Actually the Harley maps are quite rich in open loop, I see 12.5:1 AFR in several maps and that is super rich. The cruise area, where there is no real load on the bike, is running richer than Stoitch....so.....thinking or saying these AFR's are EPA is not correct...they are AFR ratios only. Harley passes the EPA standards by choking off the air going into the motor and restricting it on the exhaust side so the air flow through the motor is held back.....less air, less emissions and this is how they pass the EPA Standards. Once we open the intake and exhaust we get much more air movement through the motor and we all become a EPA violation. After dialing in the fuel for the new mass of air we have the AFR's are very much the same as they where when the bike was stock, however more air requires more fuel even though the AFR's are the same.....actually I even take away from the 12.5 in open loop because it's really not necessary to run the bike that rich in the fuel table. 
I just wanted you all to know the EPA isn't looking at AFR's....they are looking at emissions. More air, more immissions no matter what the AFR is set at. So understanding that makes the TERM EPA Map pretty silly now doesn't it.......
I'm not trying to step on anyones toes here, so please don't take it as that....I just think it's time to address this EPA Maps and Cams terms.
Doc

OK, a question then;

Why does the Harley Screamin Eagle catalogs list cams and engine modification package combinations as NOT EPA compliant and not legal for highway use, while others comply and are (1) warrenty approved and (2) street legal? example; the stage II 103 with open exhaust and intake and 255 cams?

It has certainly been a long time since I worked on automobiles, but way back then motors were manditory tested in Florida every year for EPA emmisions. Anything resulting in a slightly richer mixture resulted in too much emmisions... Back then the Japanese tackled the issue and got compliance very simply and effectively while American car makers added all kinds of gadgets to impact the exhaust gases...

Just curious...

[Doc 1]

Harley has to advertise like that to be able to sell their performance packages. The 255 cam that comes stock from the MoCo is in a bike that has restricted exhaust with the power at 82/102. As soon as you put on an exhaust system that is free flowing and match that air with fuel it will jump to 90/114 and now it's a EPA Violation. More air, more fuel, more emissions.

[timo482]

that is the whole enchilada...

the stock system maintains proper mixture to have proper emissions.

proper emissions is hot

folks dont like the heat

performance mods can be made that will retain emissions compliance - & that is all the "street legal" stuff

everything else is not street legal.

hence all the issues with warranty.

to

[dirkvr]

Concerning your popping on decel. I had the same problem. My stock rear header pipe was cracked just before the O2 sensor. I bought a true dual exhaust and my popping on decel is gone.

[Midnight Rider]

that is the whole enchilada...

the stock system maintains proper mixture to have proper emissions.

proper emissions is hot

folks dont like the heat

performance mods can be made that will retain emissions compliance - & that is all the "street legal" stuff

everything else is not street legal.

hence all the issues with warranty.

to

All that is true, grasshopper    But, replacing an exhaust and tuning a bike does not make hard parts in the engine fail, unless they are inferior products to begin with.  So, while not EPA compliant, if tested, and HD MOCO knows that 80+ % of people are going to change the exhaust and get a tune, is HD saying that it cannot build an engine other than one that is on the cutting edge of failure?

Ergo, there is no reason to deny warranty coverage for things that the exhaust and tuner had nothing to do with.  If you start messing around with Cams and stuff, that changes things a bit because you have opened/altered the components for the mechanical operation and changed them.  Different ballgame.

[ultraswede]

Ergo, there is no reason to deny warranty coverage for things that the exhaust and tuner had nothing to do with

Sorry to say, in my experience common sense has nothing to do with warranty handling at the MoCo.

Saving a buck on claims HAS!
(finding a reason/excuse to say no)

[Midnight Rider]

Sorry to say, in my experience common sense has nothing to do with warranty handling at the MoCo.

Saving a buck on claims HAS!
(finding a reason/excuse to say no)

I understand, and things are a bit different overseas than here.

[hdctss]

I have not tuned my new one, however my 2009 CVO Ultra mileage was still pretty good after Kuryakyn tuned it last year at Daytona. It was a lightly modified canned tune that they loaded there.  I would estimate that in normal riding I lost 2 MPG but when riding with a group I could still bring down 40.