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[HDGearHead]

Just feel like ranting..

When I removed my exhaust to change my cams, I found the transmission side door/bearing plate leaking badly around the 2 bolts that hold the exhaust bracket.  The bracket was loose enough to rock up and down.

My plan was to pull the bolts, clean them and the holes up and then apply blue Loctite and torque to spec.  I had also thought about drilling the heads and safety wiring them so they wouldn't loosen in the future.

Well, today I removed the two bolts.  Unfortunately, what I found makes me want to puke.

They were booth very loose and easy to turn.  The front bolt easily backed out about 3/16” and then just spun in place.  When I pulled it out, about 3 complete threads from the trans case came out with it.  The rear bolt backed out the all the way with no noticeable resistance.  However when I blew out both holes, metal chips and partial threads came out of both.

Whomever originally installed these used the wrong length bolts in this location (shorter 5/16”x18 1-3/16” instead of the correct 5/16”x18 1-1/2”).  The shorter bolts only engage about 7/16” of thread while the correct length bolts engage 3/4” of thread. 

It also looks like they used a large amount of red Loctite during their installation (although from the looks of it most of it never made it onto the threads in the trans case – mostly thick chucks of it around the portion of the bolt that doesn't actually thread into the trans case.

Now I'm not sure how to proceed….  I'm open to suggestions...

• Replace the case – have to pull the trans, completely disassemble and reassemble and the re-install.  Costly
• Install Time-Serts or better yet a Full-Torque Permanent Thread Replacement (http://fulltorque.com/).  Requires the trans side door and with gear set to be removed.  However it could be done in the frame.  Still costly but maybe less so.  It doesn't look like there is enough clearance to install a heli-coil doing the same.
• Try installing a 1-3/4” bolt.  The trans case appears to be threaded to a depth of 15/16”.  Between the 7/16” of thread that wasn't engaged by the shorter bolt, plus the approx. 3/16” of unused thread beyond that, and the 1 or two remaining threads that are marginal from the shorter bolt, maybe there's enough to get it to torque and hold….

I still have ESP on the bike.  However, since I already touched this, who knows what they and or the dealer will say.  Not looking forward to that discussion...

Frankly, I believe the dealer is the one that messed this up to begin with.  When I bought the bike 2-1/2 years ago, the PO told me he had a trans problem about 6 month prior.  When the dealer rebuilt his trans under warranty, they replaced the trans case because of a crack they found in it.  The invoices I have from PO confirm this.

Regardless, this is the worst quality POS money pit of a bike that I have ever purchased.  It's worse than owning a boat.  I love and hate the bike at the same time.  At least my Softail Deluxe has been reliable and trouble free for the last 22K miles... Now I need to go knock on wood...

[Cat Eye]

Take it into the dealer and just tell them it is leaking and let them fix it.  They will have a record of them getting into this.

This is what th ESP is for.

Good luck.

[Jswerve]

Take it into the dealer and just tell them it is leaking and let them fix it.  They will have a record of them getting into this.

This is what th ESP is for.

Good luck.

X2

[grc]

Take it into the dealer and just tell them it is leaking and let them fix it.  They will have a record of them getting into this.

This is what th ESP is for.

Good luck.

I agree about going to the dealership with the problem to see if they'll step up and do the right thing, but I disagree that "this is what the ESP is for".  The ESP, just like the factory warranty, isn't responsible for fixing stuff the dealership screws up.  That responsibility falls directly on the dealership.  And that's where things often go straight to hell, if you know what I mean.  Some places stand behind their work, while many blindly refuse to do so and do nothing but blame someone else.  There is only one way to find out which category this dealer falls into.

Jerry

[sadunbar]

I agree about going to the dealership with the problem to see if they'll step up and do the right thing, but I disagree that "this is what the ESP is for".  The ESP, just like the factory warranty, isn't responsible for fixing stuff the dealership screws up.  That responsibility falls directly on the dealership.  And that's where things often go straight to hell, if you know what I mean.  Some places stand behind their work, while many blindly refuse to do so and do nothing but blame someone else.  There is only one way to find out which category this dealer falls into.

Jerry

Yep, I agree.  Your best bet is make your case to the dealer that your problem is a result of their prior work.  Provide whatever documentation you can find to convince them.  A customer friendly dealer will work with you.  Most dealers won't work with you.  If they don't agree it's their problem, it's unlikely your ESP will pay for the repair (unless the dealer misrepresents the problem to the ESP representative).  If the ESP will not pay for the repair, then fix the threads in the case (assuming there is enough material in case in this area to allow for thread repair).  Don't try to install longer fasteners.  You've already experienced what happens when too few threads were asked to support the torque of the application.  Longer fasteners with too few threads is an even worse situation.  The longer the fastener the more leverage works against you...

[ultrafxr]

Had a somewhat similar problem on my '99 ultra several years ago.  At 70k took it in to have cam chain tensioners inspected (on my dime - it had the old spring loaded type and they had been replaced once) and lo and behold the dealer found stripped threads on one of the blind holes the cam support plate attaches to.  IMO this could only have happened when this same dealer installed the 95" stage one upgrade kit on my bike.  Anyway ESP bought a new set of cases.  Don't know how or what the dealer did to get it authorized.  I did not ask them to go through ESP but they did so on their own initiative.  Looking back I probably should have pressed them to fix it on their dime, but I seriously doubt they would have.  From my experience they generally get that puzzled look on their face when something like this happens - no idea what could have caused it.

[Cat Eye]

To me I do not care which Harley dealer screwed up....I have the ESP and want it fixed.  Its bad enough that I have to pay the $50.

To me Harley and the dealers are one of the same.  Harley has standards and trains/manages their dealers...so as a consumer, Harley is accountable for what their dealers do and don't do.

I just have choice which dealers I want to work with.

[HDGearHead]

Thank you all for the advice. 

I’m going to leave the bracket and exhaust off with the bolts removed. 

After I button up a few other jobs on the bike this and next weekend, I’ll talk to the dealer and have them come trailer the bike to their shop.  I still have a coil of the threads that came out to show them.  The rest of the chips and small chunks of Loctite went out with yesterday’s trash.

The dealer that did the trans work for the previous owner is the same one that rebuilt my motor due to a failed lifter 6 months after I bought it.  I have all of the invoices and I am certain that they also have them in their computer as well.

This dealer has generally been good to me over the years. 

Under normal circumstances, I would’ve taken it in to have them fix it. They would’ve ‘hopefully’ discovered the problem (and short bolts) on their own and would’ve assumed that it wasn’t caused by me.  Whether or not they would’ve repaired it correctly and whether or not they would have covered it is another story. 

However, now that I’ve taken it apart, I’m afraid they’ll point the finger of blame at me and wash their hands of any responsibility.  I’m sure they get their fair share of shade tree mechanics that break something and then bring it in trying to get them to eat the repair costs (maybe I’m too cynical).

I guess that’s a risk you assume when doing your own work while it’s still under warranty/ESP.  Sometimes you don’t know what you’ll find until after you’re up to your neck into the job.  Then what...

Since I had the exhaust off to change the cams, I couldn’t see re-installing it with this bracket loose and the side door leaking just to take it into the dealer to do what should have been a simple repair.  Looking back, I should have just re-installed the exhaust and took it into the dealer.

I’m looking forward to the conversation with the service manager the same as I look forward to my next colonoscopy….  Both tend to make me feel violated afterwards.

[HDGearHead]

I took it into the dealer and ESP covered the repair of the transmission leak.  In the process, the tech installed 5/16x18 .750 Timeserts in both bolt holes with the correct length bolts. 

Also, when they attempted to remove the clutch to disassemble the transmission, they had a really difficult time getting the clutch hub off of the input shaft.  They had to use pry bars.  The splines on the clutch hub look like they corroded to the input shaft.    Not sure what would cause this.  I  run Redline Shockproof primary oil in the Primary and the clutch hub was removed and re-installed by the dealer about two years ago when the rebuilt my motor after the lifter failure.

They were concerned that they may have damaged the input shaft due to the amount of force they had to apply to remove the clutch hub.  Because of this, they replaced the input shaft, clutch hub and all of the transmission bearings and seals under ESP.

I have to say, my dealer has been very good to me and good to work with.   I'm going to extend my ESP when it comes time.

[firesam23]

Glad to hear it worked out for you.  Nice that the dealer treated you right.  Ride safe

[Phantom309]

I took it into the dealer and ESP covered the repair of the transmission leak.  In the process, the tech installed 5/16x18 .750 Timeserts in both bolt holes with the correct length bolts. 

Also, when they attempted to remove the clutch to disassemble the transmission, they had a really difficult time getting the clutch hub off of the input shaft.  They had to use pry bars.  The splines on the clutch hub look like they corroded to the input shaft.    Not sure what would cause this.  I  run Redline Shockproof in the Primary and the clutch hub was removed and re-installed by the dealer about two years ago when the rebuilt my motor after the lifter failure.

They were concerned that they may have damaged the input shaft due to the amount of force they had to apply to remove the clutch hub.  Because of this, they replaced the input shaft, clutch hub and all of the transmission bearings and seals under ESP.

I have to say, my dealer has been very good to me and good to work with.   I'm going to extend my ESP when it comes time.

Good god, I hope you meant the transmission and NOT the primary! That stuff doesn't belong in there. Glad you got everything fixed without them trying to point any fingers at you.

[HDGearHead]

Good god, I hope you meant the transmission and NOT the primary! That stuff doesn't belong in there. Glad you got everything fixed without them trying to point any fingers at you.

Good catch.  I must have had a senior moment while typing that....   You are correct, I am running the Redline Shockproof in the trans and Redline Primary oil in the primary.

I'm very happy that they were able to work with me and get this repaired covered by ESP.  There are still good dealers out there.