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[Para Bellum]

FB,
Thanks for that.  Will follow this thread; looks like several people having this problem.  Good luck.

[Phantom309]

I read this whole saga from top to bottom and a few options came to mind that weren't mentioned. The first two are a little on the pricey side and not sure if the third one is even possible, but maybe worth looking into.

1) Convert back to a cable and remove all hydraulics period. Just think ... no more fluid to change, bleed and no master or slave cyl. to ever go bad. Cables have done fine over the years, just a little periodic adjustment now and then, easily lubed with a cable luber and maybe replacement once in a blue moon if you would happen to see it starting to fray. This would definitely be the most involved option in parts and labor.

2) Remember those old Briggs & Stratton mini-bikes with no clutch? ... just gas it and go! You can do the same thing to your big twin by dropping in a Rekluse Auto Clutch which is basically the same thing .... a centrifugal clutch that works by engine speed. You wouldn't have to worry where the lever starts to engage then because the only thing you would need it for is to change gears. Slow u-turns would be a breeze with no hand on the clutch at all, no fear of stalling, just go easy with the throttle.

3) This is my favorite option and one I feel HD should've done in the first place (if possible). Keep all the hydraulics they way they are and just change the pressure plate to the old style from the cable system with the adjuster and lock nut so you COULD adjust your free-play. After all the complaints about where the lever engages I'm surprised the aftermarket hasn't come up with a drop-in piece like this. Just think ... 5 torx screws, pull the derby cover, adjust, replace and you're done ... just like my old '11 RGU with a cable. I'm not even sure if an adjuster would work with hydraulic actuation? I mean whatever slack you introduce to the pushrod, wouldn't it just be taken up the next time you squeeze the lever sort of like pumping up calipers after you replace pads? I don't know, it was just a thought.     

4) Someone mentioned the pricey adjustable lever that doesn't come in chrome ... get one of those and send it out to get plated.

Mine works ok ... engages a little later than I really like, but not troublesome and I can feather it without that on/off feeling. There has to be a happy medium ... if it grabs too soon then the plates are dragging which would make it hard to find neutral and really make it clunk bad going back into 1st. If it grabs too late then it may slip, mine doesn't slip and it fully disengages even when cold so I guess that's as good as it gets. Good luck and keep us posted what your fix is.     

[grc]

Using the old style clutch release plate wouldn't help, since the hydraulics would remove any play in the release rod that you introduce with the adjustment, up to the limits of the travel of the actuator of course.

Using an adjustable lever to move the release and engage point closer to the grip, assuming you could find one designed to work with your hydraulic master cylinder, just introduces a different problem.  That would be insufficient travel to completely release the clutch.  So it would be a fine line between moving the engagement point closer to the grip and having the clutch release completely.

Harley has obviously changed something, since the older models had the opposite problem with the engagement point too close to the grip, especially when any air was in the system.  The obvious difference is the A&S clutch of course, but there also might be a difference in the master cylinder.  Lever "free play" is determined by the location of the bleed hole between the reservoir and piston, with no real pressure developed until the piston moves far enough to block the hole.  The reason I wonder about that is the change in the specs Harley published for minimum release rod travel.  The older bikes had a spec of .065", the newer bikes have a spec of .080".  Since the piston sizes of the actuator and master cylinder didn't change, the travel should have remained the same.  If someone were to install an earlier model M/C on a bike exhibiting this 90% problem, I wonder if that alone might make a difference?

In theory at least, the stack height of the actual clutch should only cause this problem IF the actuator was reaching it's physical limits of travel.  If the system is designed correctly, which of course is a big IF, those limits should not be reached during normal operation.  So the next question in my mind is, what could the change to the A&S setup have possibly contributed to this situation?

Just some rambling thoughts that have been rattling around in my noggin for some time now.  Getting to the real root cause is going to take some serious digging by some people with a lot more access to design details as well as all the parts.  That would normally be something the manufacturer would be best equipped to handle, but until the MoCo admits there is a problem and then decides to find and fix the cause(s), odds are it won't be fixed.  So we are once again back to the old way of doing things; let the customers throw money at the problem hoping to find a fix on their own.  Some things at H-D never really change.

Jerry

[Grizz]

My 15 just started doing this too. The clutch "grabs" at 95% full extended lever with zero "friction zone". Bike has 2500 miles. My 6th bike, 4th HD, 3rd with hyd-clutch, the others worked great.
Please give an update on what the issue was.

[FullBagger]

Barnett does not make a +1 for my 15 hydraulic system and suggested that I remove the damper spring and the flat ring.
They said that they had complaints about one of their clutch packs causing the lever to engage too far out and this was the fix to correct the problem.
If I understood correctly, he said it would put more free play in the pack.
Thoughts anyone?

[Eqcons]

Barnett does not make a +1 for my 15 hydraulic system and suggested that I remove the damper spring and the flat ring.
They said that they had complaints about one of their clutch packs causing the lever to engage too far out and this was the fix to correct the problem.
If I understood correctly, he said it would put more free play in the pack.
Thoughts anyone?

Sounds like it's well worth a try, FB!   

Yesterday I had a look at the Rekluse automatic clutch that was suggested earlier in the thread.  I have to say it looks every bit the perfect solution, other than the price.

[grc]

Barnett does not make a +1 for my 15 hydraulic system and suggested that I remove the damper spring and the flat ring.
They said that they had complaints about one of their clutch packs causing the lever to engage too far out and this was the fix to correct the problem.
If I understood correctly, he said it would put more free play in the pack.
Thoughts anyone?

Once again, if we assume the hydraulics are working as they are designed to, any "free play" introduced to the pack would be eliminated automatically UNLESS the system is so far out of whack that the slave cylinder (actuator) is bottomed out and cannot self correct.  And if that is the case, there is definitely something wrong in Harley's tolerances and/or design.

I wasn't impressed with the cheap crap design of the A&S in the first place, and after hearing about all the various problems since it was introduced I'm pretty sure if I owned one of the affected bikes I'd remove the A&S crap and go back to the old design. 

JMHO - Jerry

[Eqcons]

That suddenly makes a lot of sense, Jerry!   I've just realised that the difference between the '14 models that I've tried and were fine, the previous CVO hydraulic clutches I've had, and my current one which, as with others here, is awful, is that we have the A&S clutch!  10-1 that's the candidate for the problem.

Jim

[BigLew]

Hey John just want to jump in for a second. I have an 09 SERG so not the same exact clutch but I chased the exact same problem last year on mine for about 4 months before I finally fixed it. Moisture is a big issue on these systems not so much air. Air is pretty easy to find and resolve. Lot of advise from folks trying to help and the fluid level in this system is very critical to a seamless operation. After changing the fluid and flushing the system twice and double checking the level it was better but when the bike got hotter it got worse. So I went to see a master mech down here that is not only good but listens well enough to actually hear what you are telling him. I think what happens a lot with those of us who know just enough to be dangerous if we feel something is wrong based on another experience and the wrench turner just doesn't get it. ( Hey I ride and work on 20 bikes a week. They are all different, but they are ok). SO I told Jodi what was going on, what it felt like and why I didn't like it and made him ride it until he agreed that something wasn't right. If they don't feel anything is amiss they will not get it fixed. In other words, try again. Anyway my problem we found out was internal with the clutch spring plate thingy out of specs. So we replaced the entire clutch with screaming eagle race parts and it works great. Good luck with the search.

BigLew

[FullBagger]

Anyway my problem we found out was internal with the clutch spring plate thingy out of specs. So we replaced the entire clutch with screaming eagle race parts and it works great.

BigLew, thanks for chiming in!
Barnett also said that if I want to "FIX" the problem, dump the A&S and replace with the Scorpion Clutch - 2011-16 Big Twins - Hydraulic Part# 608-30-30011.
A local shop had suggested that I do this too .... That's 2 now!
They both told me it's easy, "Just press out the bearing and press it into the Scorpion".
Since I did not get a hydraulic press for Christmas , I may not be able to do this one on my own.
I like to do business with local shops so I am getting pricing for parts and labor now.

Will update as things progress.

[Grizz]

OK, Just got finished screwing around with mine. Read about the A&S today and how it works. Fluid level was on the low side. I turned the bars so the master cylinder was level and tapped on it and the line, then slowly pumped it for a min, then turned it the other way and pumped it some more, then started the bike and did about 30 slow roll starts, then I took it out and did a few "aggressive" starts and "quickly" ran thru the gears. Back to slooowww rolls until I thought I could smell the clutch. Then I took it for a twisty 20 mile loop I have near me. From red lights and stop signs it felt way better than last week (I was ready to scrap the damn thing on Friday). So after my loop I hit a parking lot and did some low speed 360s, 90 deg take offs, and figure 8s, It really felt better. I'm not sure if there was air in the line or what, but it feels 100% better than it did and is starting to engage closer to center now. Maybe there was debris in the return or the plates needed to seat, IDK. I really did not do anything but it feels more like my other bikes. If it changes back to the first 90% again Ill get the dealer to check it out.

[BigLew]

Hope that is the "fix".

BigLew

[Eqcons]

Hope that is the "fix".

BigLew

Don't think so, given the amount of work done on Fullbagger's bike so far.... 

[GMR-PERFORMANCE]

Damper will give MORE room before it makes contact and most likely will also induce a shudder when you take off.  Yes the hyd system should be correct however you get back to stack set up with the clutch.

[FullBagger]

Update. Nothing earth shattering though!
Talked to another dealer. They want a shot a "fixing" it before I purchase the Scorpion Clutch. I plan to drop it off tomorrow. I would like to have an OEM fix if possible. I am not optimistic but I think it is worth a try. It's winter and riding is a bit limited this time of year anyway.

GMR-PERFORMANCE,
If they cannot fix it or they do not even agree that there is a problem, do you think the "Scorpion Clutch - 2011-16 Big Twins - Hydraulic Part# 608-30-30011" could be the answer? Or, is it possible that the hydraulic system will simply compensate for the difference and end up right back where it is. I know there are no guarantees but an experienced opinion is always helpful.