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[DCFIREMANN]

You're making this real tough ain't you Mike? Let me ask you a question. How much work will it be on side the road, to switch back completely to stock, including O2 sensors, vs. the same thing with the PC. The PC and O2 Elims need to be removed. That's it. The TMax requires you carry the stock ECM and O2 sensors around and replace both on the side of the road. I'm trying to keep it easy. And it's not like I don't like the TMax. I actually think that it has to be the best system. Like I said it's not the $500. I might cave before the 2 years are up if this bike proves to be completetly trouble-free, but until I know I got a "Wednesday Bike", I'm just trying to keep it simple. My friend is PC Certified and has his own Dyno, so I'm not too concerned about tuning. You make a real strong case for it though! [highlight]Man you gotta be tough on this site to hold on to your $$$,[/highlight] huh? Thanks again Mike, you never know, I might be talking about doing the TMax sooner than later! I hope everyone keeps up with that thread about their experiences/ problems, etc. with the TMax, especially the new version with the ACR's. I'd also like to see confirmation that it's totally perfected in all areas, from more people here, before taking the plunge. Hoist! 8-)

OH HELL I thought that was what tis site was for. Spending our hard earned cash!

I would still think about it very hard. It is cold and you still have a ways to go till you first service. You have plenty of time to think about it and for Zippers to get all of the bugs out of the new system!

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[DCFIREMANN]

THE DAWG,

Been reading some of the posts re the THUNDER  MAX Auto Tune
Presently have the Jims 120, reworked VORTEC Heads by SBC S&S 640G cams, rest engine stock. [highlight]Have Kurayakyn 57mm TB c/w 6.33 Injectors[/highlight], runnung V&H Pro Pipe, soon to change back to Freedom Cycle True Duals.

Engine tuned with HD SERT custom MAP. Engine puts out 131 hp and 134 ft lbs TQ.

Question 1).

Since the engine is in an 03 Road Glide and using the electrics from that year, Closed Loop System. How does one adapt the Open Loop System? I assume the Oxygen Sensors of the newer Thunder Max. [highlight]I assume having bungs placed into the Freedom Cycle True Duals?[/highlight]
Question 2)

What benefit will I derive from switching to the Thunder Max System, [highlight]besides not having to retune and dyno if I change exhaust systems etc. or am I in left field thinking it is that simple. [/highlight]And besides throttle response, which is excellent now what will it do for me?

Thanks in advance,

geezerglide

GEEZER the first problem I see is the size of the throttle body. I know most if not all of the big motor maps for the Thunder Max are for a max of 54mm. I might be wrong and will have to call Zippers to find out for sure.

To change over to a closed loop system all you will need to do is add the bungs in the exhaust besides purchase the unit.

Installing the Thunder Max on your bike might not bring you any benifit with the exception of self tuning all of the time. Yes you would benefit when you made an exhaust change.

You can always try it and if you don't like it return it in 30 days.

There have been a few on here that have had a problem with the Thunder Max. Problem or not most have kept the unit and were very happy with the proformance of their bikes. All I can tell you is if it will work with your throttle body try it.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[Hoist!]

OH HELL I thought that was what tis site was for. Spending our hard earned cash!

I would still think about it very hard. It is cold and you still have a ways to go till you first service. You have plenty of time to think about it and for Zippers to get all of the bugs out of the new system!

Be Safe

THE DAWG

You're making it tough Dawg! I've always been a Zipper's fan too. Zippers and S&S are 2 old favorites! d00d would never let me live it down either! But theoretically, it's the same impact on keeping your 2 Year Warranty, just put back to stock. The other downside because of warranty; the stock ECM is removed, therefore no evidence of any hours on the bike vs. mileage. Big red flag to the warranty police. The PC still uses stock ECM with no evidence left, although some are saying the ECM picks up the use of the PC. That's not ever been confirmed yet! Like you said, I still have plenty of time. I also don't mind doing both, so it makes sense to start with the PC first. Check-your move! Hoist! 8-)

[Rhino]

Question 1).

Since the engine is in an 03 Road Glide and using the electrics from that year, Closed Loop System. How does one adapt the Open Loop System? I assume the Oxygen Sensors of the newer Thunder Max. I assume having bungs placed into the Freedom Cycle True Duals?

[highlight]You are running an open loop now. If you add bungs (2), wide band that the Zippers Kit has, you will run in closed loop all the time, that's the idea for control of fuel etc, in ALL parameters. Now you do not have it.  So, you would have to place a bung in each exhaust, no more than 4" from each header.[/highlight]
Question 2)

What benefit will I derive from switching to the Thunder Max System, besides not having to retune and dyno if I change exhaust systems etc. or am I in left field thinking it is that simple. And besides throttle response, which is excellent now what will it do for me?

[highlight]The best benefit is auto-tuning for different changing weather and density conditions. For example, if you have hot and high conditions, and then cold and sea level conditions, the auto tune will compensate automatically. The way you run now it is at an average, and may see different performance when it is hot or cold re air temperature. This is quite general, just trying to give you an idea. And yes, what you said too, when changing out exhaust and not having to dyno.  But it all starts with a BASE MAP from Zippers, in the vicinity of correct, and auto tunes from there.  The advantage? Well, the autotune replacing the dyno tuner, and frankly, electronically it may do a better job, like dynotuning on the fly .,. JMHO!  [/highlight]
Thanks in advance,

geezerglide

[Rhino]

But for warranty.. I am getting tired of hearing about it... no, really Hoist, thanks for the daily reminder for those that might forget about the warranty implications, but let's face it, I concede, warranty is important.  But engine issues related to an aftermarket application would be turned away if the end user (meaning us) screwed the pooch on the adjustments big time.  But if the dealer installed whatever, chances are good they will help you out.  If you are a nice person that is.   On the other hand, assuming the engine work is within reason, meaning just bolt on stuff, or anything short of a cam change, the warranty will be ok.    From anything other than engine, I am glad about the warranty, for items such as gauges, radios, leaks and cables, ya know, all the complicated stuff.

But theoretically, it's the same impact on keeping your 2 Year Warranty, just put back to stock. The other downside because of warranty; the stock ECM is removed, therefore no evidence of any hours on the bike vs. mileage. Big red flag to the warranty police.  Hoist! 8-)

[DCFIREMANN]

You're making it tough Dawg! I've always been a Zipper's fan too. Zippers and S&S are 2 old favorites! d00d would never let me live it down either! But theoretically, it's the same impact on keeping your 2 Year Warranty, just put back to stock. The other downside because of warranty; the stock ECM is removed, therefore no evidence of any hours on the bike vs. mileage. Big red flag to the warranty police. The PC still uses stock ECM with no evidence left, although some are saying the ECM picks up the use of the PC. That's not ever been confirmed yet! Like you said, I still have plenty of time. I also don't mind doing both, so it makes sense to start with the PC first. Check-your move! Hoist! 8-)

Hoist from a very reliable source the PC does not leave a foot print  in the factory ECM. This reliable person just left HD Factory ECM school. I am not sure that the ECM knows hours or miles on the bike. That is a new one on me. I can get the facts on that tomorrow for sure.

IMHO you should NEVER need your motor warranty unless you are very hard on the bike. Especially if left in the stock form. You do have some time but if it is me the SERT or the PC are not an option when you can have the Thunder Max with Auto Tune.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[DCFIREMANN]

[highlight]But for warranty.. I am getting tired of hearing about it... [/highlight]no, really Hoist, thanks for the daily reminder for those that might forget about the warranty implications, but let's face it, I concede, warranty is important.  But engine issues related to an aftermarket application would be turned away if the end user (meaning us) screwed the pooch on the adjustments big time.  But if the dealer installed whatever, chances are good they will help you out.  If you are a nice person that is.   On the other hand, assuming the engine work is within reason, meaning just bolt on stuff, or anything short of a cam change, the warranty will be ok.    From anything other than engine, I am glad about the warranty, for items such as gauges, radios, leaks and cables, ya know, all the complicated stuff.

YEA WHAT HE SAID!!!!!!!

Hoist forget about the 2 year warranty. I know of very few people who have had ENGINE WARRANTY ISSUES. The worst problem facing your engine right now is HEAT caused by a lean burn in your cylinders.


Be Safe

THE DAWG

[twojay]

I am supposed to pick up my SERK next week. Dealer looked at me like I was crazy when I wanted to order the ThunderMax with auto-tune which I had decided on after listening to all of you guys. Ended up ordering the SERT but not sure if I should have or not. How hard would it be for a rookie to install the ThunderMax with a D and D Fat Cat? Any initial tuning issues? If I let dealer install the SERT will the O2 sensors mount to the fat cats without any changes being needed? I have read several posts referencing the SERT having narrow band sensors and the ThunderMax having wide bands but I have to confess in that I don't know the difference. I was assuming the fat cats came with the wide bands as Zippers is promoting them.

[geezerglide]

Rhino/THE DAWG,

Thanks for your responses. The Freedom Cycles True Duals I have now do not have the bungs.

Rhino's comments about them being placed 4" from the header makes sense. However where should the bungs be oriented on the pipes so as to make sure their is no interfernce problems with the sensors, they seem quit long?

Also is the Thunder Max Auto Tune in the US $729.99 range? Is their a group discount?

DAWG,

You mention that Zippers has a MAP for max. 54mm TB and you are checking in regards to larger TBs, I would be very interested in what you find out.

Thanks again everone,

geezerglide

[SBB]

But for warranty.. I am getting tired of hearing about it... no, really Hoist, thanks for the daily reminder for those that might forget about the warranty implications, but let's face it, I concede, warranty is important.  But engine issues related to an aftermarket application would be turned away if the end user (meaning us) screwed the pooch on the adjustments big time.  But if the dealer installed whatever, chances are good they will help you out.  If you are a nice person that is.   On the other hand, assuming the engine work is within reason, meaning just bolt on stuff, or anything short of a cam change, the warranty will be ok.    From anything other than engine, I am glad about the warranty, for items such as gauges, radios, leaks and cables, ya know, all the complicated stuff.

What Rhino said!

Here's a scenario,
You install the Thunder Max AT, you do the pipes, you do the intake.
You ride for three months everywhere including the Harley shop.
You talk about how the T/Max is great, how great the bike runs, how much better it runs and recommend it to all the people you meet then,
Then there's a problem with your motor not related to the ECM or pipes, what do you do?
Ahhhhhhhhhh, take it all off before you have the bike checked?
That would be NOT very bright. (first time I wrote this I used stupid)
Noooooooo you have them check your bike out and leave it all like it is.
Does anyone really think that your dealer doesn't know what mods you have done?
Word gets around, Hell you tell everyone what you have done.

Rhino hit on the main key!
Your warranty is only as good as you dealer.
Find a good one and treat them good and it will come home.
Be a nice person to your dealer and it will come back.
If it doesn't, find another dealer!


 [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

[DCFIREMANN]

I am supposed to pick up my SERK next week. Dealer looked at me like I was crazy when I wanted to order the ThunderMax with auto-tune which I had decided on after listening to all of you guys. [highlight]Ended up ordering the SERT but not sure if I should have or not.[/highlight] How hard would it be for a rookie to install the ThunderMax with a D and D Fat Cat? Any initial tuning issues? If I let dealer install the SERT will the O2 sensors mount to the fat cats without any changes being needed? I have read several posts referencing the SERT having narrow band sensors and the ThunderMax having wide bands but I have to confess in that I don't know the difference. I was assuming the fat cats came with the wide bands as Zippers is promoting them.

The dealer doesn't make any money on the Thunder Max and gets no labor or dyno time. Go figure.

It is easy to install with your new pipes. Do yourself a favor and tell the dealer you don't want the SERT and call Zippers! Hell if you live close enough bring it up here and I will install it for you for BEER!!!!!!

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[DCFIREMANN]

What Rhino said!

Here's a scenario,
You install the Thunder Max AT, you do the pipes, you do the intake.
You ride for three months everywhere including the Harley shop.
You talk about how the T/Max is great, how great the bike runs, how much better it runs and recommend it to all the people you meet then,
Then there's a problem with your motor not related to the ECM or pipes, what do you do?
Ahhhhhhhhhh, take it all off before you have the bike checked?
That would be NOT very bright. (first time I wrote this I used stupid)
Noooooooo you have them check your bike out and leave it all like it is.
Does anyone really think that your dealer doesn't know what mods you have done?
Word gets around, Hell you tell everyone what you have done.

Rhino hit on the main key!
[highlight]Your warranty is only as good as you dealer.
Find a good one and treat them good and it will come home.
Be a nice person to your dealer and it will come back.
If it doesn't, find another dealer![/highlight]

 [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

THAT IS THE GOSPEL TRUTH FOR TODAY!!!!!!

Chip I could not have said it any better.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[twojay]

Thanks for the advice DAWG. I went to the Zipper's website last night and installation of TMax did not look like it would be a problem and they even have a base map for a 110 with fatcats. My intent was to install the TMax at some time even if I bought the SERT now but did not want dealership to change bungs on new pipes for a SERT if they would need to be changed later for the TMAX. I wasn't sure if they would have to be changed if the O2 sensors were different - wide vs. narrow. Are the bungs a one size fits all? Also for everyone's info about mods and warranty issues - it is my understanding that if an engine problem develops moco would have to prove the mods caused the problem. though it would be a hassle and no one would want to be in that position the worst scenario would be to file suit and name moco and manufacturer of your mods as defendants and then let them fight about who caused what. Thanks for the advice and the beer would be no problem.

[Hoist!]

All very compelling arguements. Are you guys on commission? It's not like there's something wrong with a properly tuned PC controlled bike though. At this point, I still feel more comfortable adding a device on to the factory system than completely replacing it. Maybe as I become more familiar with this bike and its electronics, I'll change my mind. But since my friend has a Dyno and is PC certified; and he's built all my motors and tuned my bikes for years; and built and sets-up his own 8 sec. drag bike; I feel pretty good about starting with the PC. After all, you guys have all previously stated to use what your tuner is most comfortable with! I'm sure the TM AT is in my future, but I'm leaving it there for now! Hoist! 8-)

[RedDevil]

All very compelling arguements. Are you guys on commission? It's not like there's something wrong with a properly tuned PC controlled bike though. At this point, I still feel more comfortable adding a device on to the factory system than completely replacing it. Maybe as I become more familiar with this bike and its electronics, I'll change my mind. But since my friend has a Dyno and is PC certified; and he's built all my motors and tuned my bikes for years; and built and sets-up his own 8 sec. drag bike; I feel pretty good about starting with the PC. After all, you guys have all previously stated to use what your tuner is most comfortble with! I'm sure the TM AT is in my future, but I'm leaving it there for now! Hoist! 8-)

Howie,
Like I always say.  Bottom line, it boils down to what you want and feel comfortable with.  That's the direction you go.  The only person that has to be happy with your decisions, is you.
Cheers [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif],
Red