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[DCFIREMANN]

Hey Mike...[highlight]how about Cams, lifters, pushrods, oil pump?  I'll do better than a couple of beers...[/highlight]

OK Terry you drive a hard bargin. It can be a wekend getaway in the mountains

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[DCFIREMANN]

[highlight]TwoJ...run, don't walk from this tech!!!!!!!!  He does not know anything in the world about what he is talking about!!!![/highlight]
You didn't address that to me, but I'm for real here...whoever it is that is telling you this BS is a dumb ass.  For one, the K&N is a reusable filter, and far superior in every way to the POS paper filter provided my HD.  The SERT does not modify your ECM's ability to allow the compression releases to function normally.  At the very LEAST, the tech needs to install the #84 (or is it 89?) MAP in the bike when you add the pipes.  If you're A/F ratio is not modified when you install the D&D's you will burn this motor up!!  It will be the dealer's problem, but I don't think you want more down time while they replace your engine this summer.

I'm serious, man...you are either being lied to, or this guy doesn't know his butt from hole in the ground!!

I couldn't agree more Terry. I am still amused at the BS some (not all) of the Dealers come up with.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[Fired00d]

OK Terry you drive a hard bargin. It can be a wekend getaway in the mountains

Be Safe

THE DAWG

Hmmmm. A weekend getaway in the mountains, wrenching on bikes, talking chit, drinking beer (and of course we got to have some Dickel). I might have to take you up on that offer also.

 [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 [smiley=fireman.gif]

[Midnight Rider]

Hmmmm. A weekend getaway in the mountains, wrenching on bikes, talking chit, drinking beer (and of course we got to have some Dickel). I might have to take you up on that offer also.

 [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 [smiley=fireman.gif]

Sounds like a good deal to me, d00d...

Dawg...you know we'd have to have a place for V and Diva to go shop for cute leather chit, so I'm not sure how cheap this install would be after that....

[DCFIREMANN]

Sounds like a good deal to me, d00d...

Dawg...[highlight]you know we'd have to have a place for V and Diva to go shop for cute leather chit, [/highlight]so I'm not sure how cheap this install would be after that....

OH we have a few places for the girls to shop. It won't be long and "V" will be making residence on the Mountain.

DOOD you know THE DAWG has DICKEL on tap!!!!!!! All I can say is come on you are more than welcome.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[Rhino]

YIKES!   I thought this was an argument about Warranty and PC aftermarket.
Last comment about it coming. Lemme take a deep breath.

Warranty and PC:  A discussion exists if you modify your bike there will be voided warranties. So one direction seems to be to add a PC, which does not change the existing MOCO ecm, and, can be removed to hide evidence of it, so it then appears that there was no changes. BUT you did add pipes.   SO, when you remove the PC to bring in the bike for service, and you are running stock ECM, the bike will run like crap.  So when you damage the bike, or the shop damages the bike with a hole in your piston, becasue you were running aftermarket pipes without a racetuner or PC, just stock, do you think that they will cover that? NOPE!  Because you did pipes alone. That is not recommended by ANY shop. They did not just fall off the turnip truck.  What's the point, do some damage potentially to stay within the strictest warranty guidelines on the planet?  NOPE.    But the damage that can occur is if the PC fails.  You have no way of truly knowing that until you think maybe it is running like crap, but by that time it may be to late. So now, you take off the PC, and bring it into the shop under warranty, and they see stock ecm with aftermarket pipes.   Hmmm. NOPE!

Best to have the dealer install it and he will cover it.  Changing and hiding stuff to fool a dealer is not the nicest thing to do. It is exactly what the PC does, it lies to the ECM. It also may truly hamper the tech's ability to even figure out what went wrong. Then what?, you confess from guilt and you pay the price.  So work with your dealer from the get go. They will decide about warranty. If they do not cover the Zippers, or PC, or any number of aftermarket things, they are not a dealer to play with at all.  As a side note, my dealer(s) are excited about ME installing the Thundermax w Autotune, so THEY can see it in operation. And the warranty stays.

Let the dealer do it or ok it.


Rhino
fin

[Hoist!]

YIKES!   I thought this was an argument about Warranty and PC aftermarket.
Last comment about it coming. Lemme take a deep breath.

Warranty and PC:  A discussion exists if you modify your bike there will be voided warranties. So one direction seems to be to add a PC, which does not change the existing MOCO ecm, and, can be removed to hide evidence of it, so it then appears that there was no changes. BUT you did add pipes.   SO, when you remove the PC to bring in the bike for service, and you are running stock ECM, the bike will run like crap.  So when you damage the bike, or the shop damages the bike with a hole in your piston, becasue you were running aftermarket pipes without a racetuner or PC, just stock, do you think that they will cover that? NOPE!  Because you did pipes alone. That is not recommended by ANY shop. They did not just fall off the turnip truck.  What's the point, do some damage potentially to stay within the strictest warranty guidelines on the planet?  NOPE.    But the damage that can occur is if the PC fails.  You have no way of truly knowing that until you think maybe it is running like crap, but by that time it may be to late. So now, you take off the PC, and bring it into the shop under warranty, and they see stock ecm with aftermarket pipes.   Hmmm. NOPE!

Best to have the dealer install it and he will cover it.  Changing and hiding stuff to fool a dealer is not the nicest thing to do. It is exactly what the PC does, it lies to the ECM. It also may truly hamper the tech's ability to even figure out what went wrong. Then what?, you confess from guilt and you pay the price.  So work with your dealer from the get go. They will decide about warranty. If they do not cover the Zippers, or PC, or any number of aftermarket things, they are not a dealer to play with at all.  As a side note, my dealer(s) are excited about ME installing the Thundermax w Autotune, so THEY can see it in operation. And the warranty stays.

Let the dealer do it or ok it.


Rhino
fin

Man Rhino, you make some really great points. You assume one thing. You have the dealer working on your bike. Mine subcontracts the Dynotune. No Dyno. So I take on the extra cost of making my bike run the way it should for $30K in the first place (my choice), make the bike run better, making it much less riskier for HD, but still have to be concerned about my warranty. Earlier I said I'll Dyno it and check the effect of stock, and then w/ the new mufflers. If stock isn't even good enough, then adding pipes certainly can't help. You're right, I won't let my bike be exposed to that. Period. So I might have to make a permanent mod so a failure doesn't cause any damage, and fight with them for the warranty, knowing my bike is much better than the way they gave it to me. I've been doing my own work and bringing them the warranty for years. All carb bikes. This time it's with this ECM thing to deal with. I really don't know how much grief I'll get. You're also right, I should have a talk with them about it. Besides the dealer, there's still the factory to deal with. That could also impact the dealer's ability to help you. That also plays a factor on which system. There are not a lot of people saying bad things about the newest PC's. Many seem to swear by it. Can the PC be set-up that if it fails, the bike cuts out, like a failed ECM or TM? As long as you can't do any damage from a failure, it has to be a viable option too. Testing, to me is the only way I'll know what I'll be facing! And testing I will do! Numbers don't lie, even if the PC does. Hoist! 8-)

[O.Olsson]

I'm trying to figure out wich is the best way to go on 2007 CVO.
I have tried to see the good and bads in both.
Anyone have more to put in ??
CERT
+
Harley product = guarantee

_
Expensive
Hard to remap to the old exhaust when you need to the yearly check on the bike that we have in sweden.
Harder to do the dyna runs beacuse you need to stop the bike between the changes.

Commander
+
easy to remap for yearly check.
Cheaper
Easier to use when doing a dyna run.
 -
No Harley guarantee on the engine and the eletricity.

Regards
O.Olsson

[Midnight Rider]

I'm trying to figure out wich is the best way to go on 2007 CVO.
I have tried to see the good and bads in both.
Anyone have more to put in ??
CERT
+
Harley product = guarantee

_
Expensive
Hard to remap to the old exhaust when you need to the yearly check on the bike that we have in sweden.
Harder to do the dyna runs beacuse you need to stop the bike between the changes.

Commander
+
easy to remap for yearly check.
Cheaper
Easier to use when doing a dyna run.
 -
No Harley guarantee on the engine and the eletricity.

Regards
O.Olsson

O...for your particular situation, where you have to change everything back to stock for the inspection, seems the PCIII would be an easier way to go.  If you have a warranty issue, you might have to take it off and put stock pipes back on before taking it in, but if you've got a good dealer, they'll stand behind the addtion of the PCIII and not give you any crap.

[Midnight Rider]

 [smiley=beatdeadhorse.gif] [smiley=beatdeadhorse.gif] [smiley=behead.gif]

Hoist...Here's what I think you ought to do to cover all your bases...this is just my personal opinion, and based on information gathered from all this discussion about warranties, etc.

Get your dealer to install your slip on muffs, or if they don't care, you do it yourself.  Buy a SERT from your dealer and have them load MAP #84 into your ECM.  No decent dealer in the country is going to give you chit about that if something were to happen on the road. It's done all the friggin' time to probably 75% of the bikes they sell, or some variation on that theme. It's the same as changing jets in a carb, only better.

A POS dealer is going to find SOMETHING to give you crap about if they want to.  Find another dealer if they do.

Ride the bike.

If you're still not happy with the way the bike runs, even though it will be within decent operating parameters...but if you want a bit more out of it, and a "custom" tune, piggyback a PCIII on there, get your friend to tune it on the Dyno.  Or, take the bike to a dealer who can do a good tune with the SERT and let them tune it.  Make an appointment with Bumpus in Memphis when you come through next September and let them tune the SERT, if you can't find someone closer that you trust.

Ride the bitch.

If your motor is going to take a dump, you'll know it by then.  Be optimistic...there are thousands of PC's sold throughout the world...I don't have the stats in front of me, but I would be willing to bet that the failure rate on a product that has not recently been released is well within what any sane person would consider "normal".  PCIII's are available almost anywhere in the country, usually even at a HD dealership.  Keep you a CD down in the bottom of your bag with your PCIII MAP on it...even carry the SERT with you, if it would make you feel better.  If your PCIII were by some unlikely probability to take a dump, pick one up at the dealer, or call Fuelmoto USA, have them overnight you another one, borrow a laptop or desktop somewhere, hook up to the USB port, load your MAP, stick it on...hit the road again.

You sound like a man who is "in tune" with his machine while riding, so you're going to know if it's not right.

In a couple of years, or sooner if you're comfortable, get the Tmax with AT, yank all the other chit off and put it in a box, stick it on the shelf, just in case.  Or just stick with what you have, make whatever changes, get another tune, and ride.

Some of the above is a duplication of effort, but here's what this option gives you:  A decent MAP in the ECM, via the SERT, to cover your bases, and perhaps make the bike run fine for you with nothing else done to it.  The PCIII offers you the ability to fine tune the system with your buddy, but you've still got a good program in the ECM to fall back on in the unlikely event the PCIII went out on you while traveling, plus the flexibility to change things if/when you change something else on the bike.  Tons of bikes, mine included, have an ECM flash with a PCIII on top.  Cost to you will be about 7 to 1K, depending on how you work things out with your buddy and your dealer. You've not REPLACED the ECM, so your fears about the warranty implications of the Tmax have been put to rest.  HD will not deny a warranty claim with a factory MAP to the ECM.  If they tried, you'd win that battle.  What they're freaked about is getting cited by the EPA, so if push came to shove, I don't think they're going to dicker over a couple of thousand dollars when, if it was reported that one of their dealers installed some of THEIR parts (SERT), and it could be shown that this is done all the time, they'd have to pay tens of thousands in fines for EPA violations.

My 2 cents...I'm done.

[SBB]

[smiley=beatdeadhorse.gif] [smiley=beatdeadhorse.gif] [smiley=behead.gif]


[highlight]My 2 cents...I'm done[/highlight].

Thank you Terry!

I saw that dead horse and was wondering if it could get any deader (if that's a word).
You have covered ALL the bases so lets bury that horse before some of my workers try to steal it and cook it for dinner!

[Hoist!]

Thanks Terry, it appears this moving target has changed again. So, first let me go on record right here and now, Screw HD's engine warranty!!! Getting my bike right is my first and foremost priority! Fighting with HD is secondary! Yes, I've changed my tune. Thank you all for finally opening my eyes. As of this moment I am resigning as Warranty Advocate of this site. As a matter of fact, this will be the last time you see a reference to a 2 Year Warranty from me! Go ahead, let me have it! I'm moving on.

I had a lengthy discussion this morning with my tuner (friend), who just got back from the latest PC training. There are many new developments with PC. Wide band O2 sensors, tie-in to PC's computers thru their "DT" program-which gets hooked up directly thru the Dyno, handlebar mounted switching between racing and economy modes and others. I didn't know it, but he's also a Zipper's dealer. So he has full access to the TM AT system as well. He's going to get me all the documentation, with the pros and cons of the PC and TM and we're going to decide, once and for all, what system to use!

So, we've determined that we need to permanently install whatever ECM modifications that each individual is comfortable with. I'm not going to debate as to which system is better. I'll do more research, talk and review it with my tuner, and make a decision that him and I are both comfortable with.

Another major change associated with this eye-opening morning. By making this permanent ECM change, True Duals are a MUST! He can't properly tune, nor can the TM AT properly tune, a motor with HD's crossover, as you have all previously stated. OK, let me have it again! I told him to order whichever TD system he thinks will accomodate my SPO's and WB O2 sensors best. He explained that the oil temp should ideally be around 225 deg F and not exceed 240 deg F. he told me to continue breaking the bike in as is. My temp has not exceeded 210 deg F yet, so this weather is my friend with the stock set-up. All PC's new stuff and his PC Dyno program will be out within a couple of weeks.

I'm still going to do the stock base Dyno run I spoke of to satisfy my curiousity, but will not attempt to run with the PP and TD/SPO's. It will be to lean, so why bother. This means you can not run on the stock ECM ever again as long as you've done intake/exhaust mods., as you've also previously stated. OK, here's your chance, give it to me again!

So maybe our boy Hoist finally woke up, grew up or just smelled the roses. But I'm man enough to admit when I'm wrong. Not really wrong, just satisfying my "engineering" mind and making sure I've thoroughly reseached things enough to make a completely informed decision.

Summary. For anyone thjat's been following my thought process and mods associated with that process, and is trying to mimmick my changes, I'll say: IGNORE ANYTHING I'VE RECOMMENDED TO DATE REGARDING ECM MODS!!! Today is a new day and I've seen the light! So stay "TUNED". I'll let you know what's next, but it will not be based on maintaining Warranty. If this scares you, follow someone else's mods!

And last but not least, d00d, I give up. You win (I really win too)! Warranty be damned! Full speed ahead!!! Hoist! 8-)

[RedDevil]

And last but not least, d00d, I give up. You win (I really win too)! Warranty be damned! Full speed ahead!!! Hoist! 8-)

Howie,
I don't know...remember, you've got a "Monday" bike.    (Just kidding bro!!!)
Cheers [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif],
Red

[ESJ JESTER]

Atta boy Howie!!!   [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]  it was only1 yr 353 days left anyway..  2 years-schmears....  TC  said it best....Ride the bitch!      

[Fired00d]

.....

And last but not least, d00d, I give up. You win (I really win too)! Warranty be damned! Full speed ahead!!! Hoist! 8-)

Hallelujah!!!!! Seriously Bro I don't win you win. You are going to have a good running bike that will last you a long time by whatever means necessary.

 [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 [smiley=fireman.gif]