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[dnlpnd]

I am interested in reusing my stock Harley electronic automatic compression releases (ACRs) with the S&S Super Stock Heads (model 106-3240).  S&S says the stock Harley electronic ACRs will not work with their heads, even though this particular model of heads are machined for their proprietary S&S electronic ACRs.

However, Fuel Moto uses these same exact S&S Super Stock Heads as the base for their CNC Outlaw heads and supposedly machine them to accept the stock Harley electronic ACRs.  Can this really be true?!?  If it were that easy, why wouldn’t S&S just offer an option for stock Harley electronic ACRs?

Are there corners being cut/cobbling going on here by Fuel Moto, because S&S gave me the impression that the material was simply not there in their castings to machine in the stock Harley electronic ACRs?  S&S said they do not recommend or support the attempt to machine in the stock Harley electronic ACRs.  What gives?!?

Thanks,

dnlpnd

[HD Street Performance]

If Fuel Moto can do it then it is possible.
I have the tooling to drill them and I assume the S&S head would be similar in the stack if it was not previously drilled for theirs. Never had a call to do it yet.

[prodrag1320]

I would assume their getting them from S&S un-machined and machining them for HD ARC`s. (why I have no idea,it would be ALOT easier to just use the S&S ACR`s) I just had to repair a stripped out S&S head and the ACR is completely different

[dnlpnd]

I would assume their getting them from S&S un-machined and machining them for HD ARC`s. (why I have no idea,it would be ALOT easier to just use the S&S ACR`s) I just had to repair a stripped out S&S head and the ACR is completely different

Maybe easier to use the S&S ACRs, but very expensive, and there are footnotes in their catalog that there could be clearance issues with the frame.  The S&S ACR kit is $322, then you have to buy their die cast rocker covers $600 (only available in chrome, I need black).  Then after all that, you have to do a bunch of wiring to wire them into the stock wiring harness and deal will any potential clearance issues with the frame.  S&S even sells a two-piece socket ($84) to help with clearance issue.  The S&S electronic ACRs are huge.  No way am I interested in opening this can of worms!

It is so dumb that S&S doesn't offer an option for stock Harley electronic ACRs and there are others (Fuel Moto) out there filling a niche by modifying S&S heads to accept stock Harley electronic ACRs.  Without actually seeing one, is your gut feel that whatever Fuel Moto is doing to modify the S&S head to accept the stock Harley electronic ACRs is structurally sound and not cobbled up?  Maybe like you said, FM is getting them unmachined and in that situation everything is copasetic.

Thanks,

dnlpnd

[HD Street Performance]

It is so dumb that S&S doesn't offer an option for stock Harley electronic ACRs and there are others (Fuel Moto) out there filling a niche by modifying S&S heads to accept stock Harley electronic ACRs.  Without actually seeing one, is your gut feel that whatever Fuel Moto is doing to modify the S&S head to accept the stock Harley electronic ACRs is structurally sound and not cobbled up?  Maybe like you said, FM is getting them unmachined and in that situation everything is copasetic.

The heads come without drilling. Electric compression releases are optional. Most use Easy Start cams such as the 124 and 124LC motors
If Fuel Moto can drill them I am sure me and others can drill them. I will just say there is low demand and personally I try to steer away from hobby projects when I am busy in the winters.

The Harley CVO head is a very good basis for performance work and few are willing to buy a $1000 set of S&S heads then start messing with them looking to add value. If that is the case these same buyers typically will be looking at changing bolt patterns to the S&S, use T2 cases and build something that will actually mean business not just burn a hole in your pocket. It is about value added for dollars spent. Plus with more of the water cooled motors in circulation S&S has no solution for those.

[hrdtail78]

If I was going to go that route.  I would get a hold of who is actually doing that for FM and deal directly with the source.


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[prodrag1320]

 S&S acr's are 14mm,HD are 12 mm.so im sure there just sleeving them down.next time i get a S&S head in ill figure it out & make some

[dnlpnd]

S&S acr's are 14mm,HD are 12 mm.so im sure there just sleeving them down.next time i get a S&S head in ill figure it out & make some

That is really good information.  Thanks!

I have an email into S&S asking this same question (I am doubtful they will give me a straight answer), but do you think the raw S&S heads (between 106-3240 & 900-0412) are the same?  If so, since the HD ACRs are smaller it would be better to start with a head that has not been machined yet (900-0412)...right?  Is it really worth approximately another $800 for what FM is doing to these heads?  Seems like a skilled machinist could drill and tap a couple of 12mm holes for no more than $200.  Now, if the material isn’t there on a 900-0412, but only on the 106-3240 that has been pre-drilled 14mm for the S&S ACRs, that is a game changer and there would be no choice but to sleeve down to 12mm.

I guess the question would be are the other things FM is claiming to do to the S&S Super Stock heads is worth another $600.  The way I am seeing it ~$1000 for S&S 900-0412, ~$200 for HD ACR Machining, and ~$100 to change the 0.585 springs to 0.640 springs; done, with a ~$500 savings!  Are the FM Outlaw heads ~$500 better?  I really do not want the super-stiff FM pre-installed 0.660 springs either.

"Fuel Moto Outlaw cylinder heads are designed for maximum horsepower & torque in high output applications and are based on S&S Super Stock castings. FM Outlaw heads are fully CNC machined including the ports and combustion chamber. Port profile was developed by Rick Ward (of NHRA Pro Stock fame) and are capable of 160+hp."

Outlaw CNC Features:($1800)
• Brand new replacement heads, no core exchange needed!
• Fits 2006-later Twin Cam engines (99-05 models require late model flanges).
• CNC machined ports with emphasis on maximum horsepower & torque. Fully developed port profile by Rick Ward.
• CNC machined combustion chamber. Available 85-91cc (machined to spec)
• Corrected valve geometry
• Stainless 2.00" Intake 1.610" Exhaust valves
• Multi radius competition valve job
• .660 lift beehive style valve springs manufactured from ultra clean high silicon / vanadium Kobe alloy wire
• Heads are machined for Harley Automatic Compression releases & late model FLH front engine mount
• Compatible with stock rocker housings & covers, includes lower rocker gaskets

http://www.fuelmotousa.com/p-28619-cylinder-head-porting.html#outlaw

SUPER STOCK® CYLINDER HEADS: (~$1000)
• 2006 – '15 big twins
• Heads can be decked up to .060" to increase compression
• 89cc heads have 2.000" intake and 1.605" exhaust valves
• S&S 89cc heads have a whopping 264cfm flow rate (compared to 182cfm for stock H-D® heads)
• S&S .585" or .650" lift valve springs
• 2006-'15 heads are machined for 2008-'15 FL top motor mount
• Includes 4 long headbolts for installation
• Compatible with stock rocker boxes, exhaust and intake manifolds   
• Compression release machining or without compression release machining

Please PM me if anyone knows of a good S&S hookup for what we're talking about here.

Thanks Again,

dnlpnd

[HD Street Performance]

What are these heads intended for? What motor, CU/IN, year, intended use, goal ~hp/CU/IN
How can we comment on heads without knowing what the rest of the combination will look like
There are distinct differences between the ACRs used by S&S and Harley but we are now in the grass blades when we should first get a higher level of what you are planning on doing. It is possible to use S&S heads with Harley rocker boxes too.
I can help you with S&S parts as well as OEM castings.

[dnlpnd]

Hold on a second
What are these heads intended for? What motor, CU/IN, year, intended use, goal ~hp/CU/IN
How can we comment on heads without knowing what the rest of the combination will look like
There are distinct differences between the ACRs but we are now in the grass blades when we should first get a higher level of what you are planning on doing.
I can help you with S&S parts as well as OEM castings.

Sure, we can go back to square one, just to make sure I am not missing something.

I am planning an in-the-bike build that utilizes the newly released 117ci screamin eagle piston and cylinder kit (92500050).  I already have the screamin eagle 58mm throttle body/intake.  I am pretty sure I will need to go up to the 5.3 injectors.
 
The 117ci kit claims 9.9:1 compression ratio with stock 110ci heads, which I think are 95cc.  The S&S catalog claims their 91cc super stock heads do 10.3:1 on a 117ci.  I am open to suggestions on this, but the compression ratio target should be something that has no risk of pre-detonation with a maximum of 91 octane gas.  My rough math shows for a ~10.5 target the combustion chamber would need to be ~89cc.

There is more detail in my signature, but I would like a reliable tourer for 2-up riding with monster torque.

I am in parts gathering mode and will not start the build until all parts are procured.  It may end up that the build does not happen until after the next riding season in Iowa.  Downtime is unacceptable and riding season is quickly approaching.

Thanks,

dnlpnd

[HD Street Performance]

OK now I am getting a clearer picture, thanks
I have a lot of experience with 117" motors but most of those were with CVO 110 heads porteg, from mild to wild. It is very easy to get the torque into the mid 130s with a very strong early torque rise but still have 100+ left in the end. I can't see any advantage to the S&S heads for this application. The cost for a set of used CVO heads and machining is considerably less and there is no downside and they have the OEM ACR provision.

Here is the yang version

[dnlpnd]

OK now I am getting a clearer picture, thanks
I have a lot of experience with 117" motors but most of those were with CVO 110 heads porteg, from mild to wild. It is very easy to get the torque into the mid 130s with a very strong early torque rise but still have 100+ left in the end. I can't see any advantage to the S&S heads for this application. The cost for a set of used CVO heads and machining is considerably less and there is no downside and they have the OEM ACR provision.

Here is the yang version

No offense and I appreciate the sediment of trying to save me some money, but I'd like to go new stuff.  I would do the SCREAMIN’ EAGLE® PRO CNC PORTED, FACTORY HEADS WITH VALVE UPGRADE, 16500013A before I bought used.

You honestly do not think the S&S heads with the 2.000" intake and 1.605" exhaust valves with the 89cc CC (on a 117ci) would not perform significantly better than porting the hell out of the stock CVO heads?

So, we're back to the ACR discussion and the virtues of the $1800 FM Outlaws versus $1300 Custom Super Stocks...right?  Do you agree with my S&S CC size for a 117ci?

Thanks,

dnlpnd

p.s. nice graph

[HD Street Performance]

Here is the regular gas version. This is a lot more docile. Also the head package is our lowest end, Street Pro, yet still has premium parts
Both used OEM head castings not even the CVOs which would have been a better choice, in my opinion.
Nothing is preventing you from buying new CVO heads. The discount dealers sell them online. You are in the USA aren't you?
Those S&S heads are not that great in terms of performance especially out of the box.
There is nothing wrong with Harleys kit including the 259E but that cam really shines at higher compression and does so with less cylinder pressure by virtue of the later closing intake valve than the stock CVO with the 255 cams. No PMS at 10.5+. With ported heads this is a winner. But the crank needs to be addressed, don't skip that. S&S is the best source for that, plug and play. The S&S crank can be supplied with tapered top rods to fit the SE pistons with no machining necessary.

[dnlpnd]

Here is the regular gas version. This is a lot more docile. Also the head package is our lowest end, Street Pro, yet still has premium parts
Both used OEM head castings not even the CVOs which would have been a better choice, in my opinion.
Nothing is preventing you from buying new CVO heads. The discount dealers sell them online. You are in the USA aren't you?
Those S&S heads are not that great in terms of performance especially out of the box.

So, your professional recommendation is that I go with the SCREAMIN’ EAGLE® PRO CNC PORTED, FACTORY HEADS WITH VALVE UPGRADE, 16500013A over either off-the-shelf S&S or the FM Outlaws.

With that said, I would need to take further action to bump the 117ci kit's compression from 9.9:1 to ~10.5:1.  I am not messing with the pistons that come with the kit.  So, we're left with decking, thinner gaskets, or a combination of both.  Then we start screwing with the fitment of my existing SE 58mm throttle body/intake.  Could a person even get from 9.9:1 to ~10.5:1 using these methods, without completely screwing up intake fitment?

Assuming, going with your suggested Screamin Eagle heads (16500013A), what cams would you recommend with the 117ci?  I suspect the SE head route will also require upgrading the 0.585 spring too, depending on what cams you suggest.  Hell, maybe the Feuling 574's I have in there would be perfect for this strategy and I do not even have to reopen the camchest.

Thank You,

dnlpnd

p.s. Yes, I am in Iowa and have an on-line HD parts source.

[HD Street Performance]

Your worries are grounded however any shop that is worth their weight in salt will send you a package that is ready to go.
The SE MVA heads are not that great. They still have a bloated exhaust port and frankly I can take a stock casting and get more airflow and more air speed on both sides.