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[HighOnHD]

HighOnHD,

It cost you more than $50.00 to have the motor rebuilt you had to pay for an extended warranty.  So, you motor is  being rebuilt during peak riding season.  How many weeks is your bike down?

Failed lifters going on for 9 years is not executable.  HD knows of the issues, and counts on people not riding enough miles a year to have to cover it under factory warranty.  For HD its cheeper to not fix the issue, and fix a few bikes under factory warranty like they had to do for two of mine.  On my 15, lifters failed at 44K and motor was replaced under factory warranty.

Many say oh that was nice they fixed it under warranty, you should not be up set.  Well, it happened the first day of a planned vacation with my Nephew and a few other friends.  We had been planning a year.  I did not get to go.  That pissed me off more the the failed lifter, but that was 100% HD fault.

FlaHeatWave,

Fully agree with you on having to purchase an additional ESP.  I never have for anything.  That is also why I trade my Harley at two years.  I know its going to have issues, expensive ones.  If I were to keep it longer I would have to buy the warranty.  All my cars and trucks have never had an engine failure. 

The M8 is EPA driven.  Noise is part of it and so is emissions for here  and Europe.  The Valve train of the HD twin cam is noisy and EPA is demanding a quieter bike.  M8 has little to no valve train noise.  M8 also has cleaner emissions. 

I think the M8 is a better motor, but I am afraid it has its issues due to HD's loose tolerances for parts, and using the least expensive part.

That said my 17 CVO Street glide had 20526 trouble free miles in 11 months.  To really know we will need to see them with 60K or more miles on them

Hi Dave,

First off I would like to thank you for your service. Appreciated!

I have actually thought about and compared your method of trading-in every two years and the method I am using of purchasing the ESP. Mostly wondering if the undoubtedly extra cost of your method (I would imagine at trade-in you are getting around $10K less than you paid) would make up for the possibility of obtaining extra riding time. It just does not make sense in that regard to me.
I almost wish it was "peak riding season here"! It's actually the tail end of the season, and yes that part hurts. I instead try to look at the three years of hella fun yearly across country plus 5K mile trips I enjoyed, along with the multiple over-weekenders and many other fun rides without an issue.

I know a lot of people harp on about the "lifters, the lifters!", and how all HD has needed to do was put in some better ones for a few dollars more and all would be great. I disagree. They needed to do a re-design. In my case the actual cause was not the lifters. The actual cause was heat!!! Does anyone give HD any credit for attempting to correct the heat (while at the same time trying to PLEASE everyone) by engineering the water-cooled head design? That actually did take some additional time and money for them to do that! No credit! It still did not work, and they bit the bullet and did a complete redesign to try again to fix it. Remember it is an air-cooled engine that the majority of us seem to demand.

Mechanical problems are not restricted to HD! When I was a kid I worked as a Mercedes mechanic. I admire a lot of the engineering put into those cars. Don't think for a minute though that I did not make a lot of money fixing a steady stream of those cars ON WARRANTY!!! My dad bought a brand new Chevy Truck. 5 miles on the ODO. Moved his tools from the old Ford truck into the new one. Started the new one up and thought he heard a rod knocking. Went and got the salesman to hear. At first the salesman said I don't hear it, so my dad pushed the pedal to the floor and it knocked like hell. They rebuilt the engine on the brand new truck. Go do a search on the Indian forum and you will find a thread of something like 170 pages that competes well with the Twin Cam thread on this site of owners complaining.

As far as I can tell HD did not hold a gun to your head telling you to keep buying their bikes! All I can say is get used to it. If it is made by humans it will break. Hell I'm not made by humans and I can feel the break-downs daily.

Unbalanced I appreciate your honesty in reporting your issues with S&S. BTW. Your two posts are the most relevant posts in this thread!!!! I still think it comes down to the numbers and percentage wise I still suspect HD has better quality percentage wise than some others put forward. I'm just trying to play devils advocate and learn from others on this site what truly needs to be done. All of the other noise posts just get in the way!

[J.D.]

The problem with the lifters is the cam ramps, total lift, and spring pressure required to produce the power exceed the limits of these lifters.  This is not just an opinion.  The M8 design addresses this more or less.  There are aftermarket lifters that can tolerate this a bit better than the current OE "c" suffix lifters.

[HighOnHD]

The problem with the lifters is the cam ramps, total lift, and spring pressure required to produce the power exceed the limits of these lifters.  This is not just an opinion.  The M8 design addresses this more or less.  There are aftermarket lifters that can tolerate this a bit better than the current OE "c" suffix lifters.

I'm going to move on after this post, and I'm sure others will carry it on, and on... Not sure if my alternate opinion has had any effect.

My failure was heat related. The HEAT did in the valve seals. They leaked and eventually caused an exhaust valve to stick. Well you know what happens after that.

Yes I agree M8 design and all the time and effort HD put into that was to help with the valve train issues. I thought I said that??? I hope you can enjoy the bike you have. Good day.

I get mine back Tuesday!! Now hoping for the non-rain days to enjoy it some more.
Cheers.

[FlaHeatWave]

Fair enough.

Denial? Of what? No one makes me DO anything or BUY anything (except my wife on occasion)!! This isn’t my first Harley and it is somewhere around my 15th or so bike. I bought this bike (as most things in life) because I wanted to buy it. Knowing exactly what to expect with this bike I also wanted to buy the ESP.

Everyone has an opinion. I love my bike, and do not in any way regret the purchase I made, and have yet to see an alternative (for me) that would be a better purchase. If you think there is a better one out there how about proposing it? Which do you suggest?

I’m not saying this is you, but the difference is unlike some I don’t continually blame someone else for the decisions I make! I own them. I don't have an agenda. I just take things at their face value and deal with it. When I get off of the ESP warranty teat and have a choice to either make an attempt to make this engine more reliable (hopefully not too difficult) , or choose to try another engine out to see if it manages to be more reliable, or just decide to buy another bike... I will deal with it then. In the mean time it would be nice to be able to filter out some of the noise that gets posted so that it would be easier to know what ACTUALLY needs to be done!

So far though I am not convinced that HD is as despicable as some try to make them out to be. JMHO

None of this was directed at you in any kind of derogatory way, I'd hoped to convey some humor, guess it didn't come across as intended  

Me,,,I'm one of the biggest "kool-aide" drinkers ever,,, "Why do I have 3 Harleys??" "So that I have 1 to ride when the other 2 are in the Shop"LOL

As a lifetime motorcycle enthusiast, I've been fortunate to experience many different Bikes (brands),,, HDs for over 40 years,,, In spite of HD's cost and shortcomings, I'm sticking with them... All brands have issues...

I'm sure that we all appreciate another point of view, a dissenting opinion if you will,,, but many here have experienced issues that we feel should have been addressed already, I have had my share,,, ESP has been a very cost effective decision for me,,, I was fortunate to have a Dealer that was fair and did the right thing...

Something that gets mentioned from time to time; "There's a disproportionate amount of issues posted on the Forums" "people come to the Forums to bitch, or find fixes" "there are plenty of Harley owners with tons of miles and zero issues"... maybe so?? maybe not?? IDK,,, only the MoCo has access to all that info... I know experienced operators (not on any forums) that have many trouble free miles, routine maintenance only,,, and those that have multiple failures with things that should have been fixed / warrantied by the MoCo...       

Yea, I'm with you,,, nobody held a gun to my head to make me buy a Harley

Yep, it's good to have choices,,, we can take advantage of a mature (and still developing) aftermarket for the Twin Cam, or get a totally new engine platform (M8) to work with,,, or keep the TC & get an M8

Here's hoping that you get many more miles of smiles out of your HD

[FLSTFI Dave]

Hi Dave,

First off I would like to thank you for your service. Appreciated!

I have actually thought about and compared your method of trading-in every two years and the method I am using of purchasing the ESP. Mostly wondering if the undoubtedly extra cost of your method (I would imagine at trade-in you are getting around $10K less than you paid) would make up for the possibility of obtaining extra riding time. It just does not make sense in that regard to me.
I almost wish it was "peak riding season here"! It's actually the tail end of the season, and yes that part hurts. I instead try to look at the three years of hella fun yearly across country plus 5K mile trips I enjoyed, along with the multiple over-weekenders and many other fun rides without an issue.

I know a lot of people harp on about the "lifters, the lifters!", and how all HD has needed to do was put in some better ones for a few dollars more and all would be great. I disagree. They needed to do a re-design. In my case the actual cause was not the lifters. The actual cause was heat!!! Does anyone give HD any credit for attempting to correct the heat (while at the same time trying to PLEASE everyone) by engineering the water-cooled head design? That actually did take some additional time and money for them to do that! No credit! It still did not work, and they bit the bullet and did a complete redesign to try again to fix it. Remember it is an air-cooled engine that the majority of us seem to demand.

Mechanical problems are not restricted to HD! When I was a kid I worked as a Mercedes mechanic. I admire a lot of the engineering put into those cars. Don't think for a minute though that I did not make a lot of money fixing a steady stream of those cars ON WARRANTY!!! My dad bought a brand new Chevy Truck. 5 miles on the ODO. Moved his tools from the old Ford truck into the new one. Started the new one up and thought he heard a rod knocking. Went and got the salesman to hear. At first the salesman said I don't hear it, so my dad pushed the pedal to the floor and it knocked like hell. They rebuilt the engine on the brand new truck. Go do a search on the Indian forum and you will find a thread of something like 170 pages that competes well with the Twin Cam thread on this site of owners complaining.

As far as I can tell HD did not hold a gun to your head telling you to keep buying their bikes! All I can say is get used to it. If it is made by humans it will break. Hell I'm not made by humans and I can feel the break-downs daily.

Unbalanced I appreciate your honesty in reporting your issues with S&S. BTW. Your two posts are the most relevant posts in this thread!!!! I still think it comes down to the numbers and percentage wise I still suspect HD has better quality percentage wise than some others put forward. I'm just trying to play devils advocate and learn from others on this site what truly needs to be done. All of the other noise posts just get in the way!

If I was loosing 10K on trade, then I would not be trading.  I ride year round but we are nearing the end of our riding season.  I own three harley's so one one is broke I have something to ride.  That however does not fix a trip that the bike fails several hundred miles from home, as my 15 did.

The failed lifters are caused by excessive valve spring pressure from everything I have read and cheep lifters that can not handle it.  On my I have addressed those issues.  It would not have cost harley much to address it.  They chose not to, knowing failures usually happen after the bike is long out of warranty.

Yes, seems like Harley did try to address the heat issue, my 15 CVO Road Glide Ultra was the coolest running twin cam I owned, yet it had lifter failure.  My 17 CVO Street glide was a little cooler than the 15.  Seems HD has gone backwards now, as the CVO Street Glide, and Road Glide are no longer water cooled heads.  Water pumps cost to much?  Its now oil cooled heads, and it is much hotter.

Seems like Oil pumps are the issue on the M8.  Time will tell.

I have owned 8 CMC trucks, all but one I put over 100K miles on.  No failed engines.  My wife has had several SUVs all over 100K miles, a couple over 200K miles, no engine failures.

Out of four twin cam 110 motors, two had catastrophic lifter failures, under 47K miles, one went 46K no failure.  The 4th never had a chance, as the motor top end was built with better lifters, and valve springs with lower pressures with only 1500 miles on the motor.  I knew I was keeping this bike.

So that is at least a 50% failure rate on the HD 110 motor for me.  A car co would be out of business with that failure rate.

You are right HD did not hold a gun to my head.  They happen to be the best choice for several reasons.  Looks, comfort and dealers are everywhere.  All the others have issues also, indian, and BMW have as many issues as HD.  Gold wing seems to have the least amount of issues, but I do not like them.  After My 15's failure I was very close to being on an Indian. 

That said, I will not give HD a pass for crappy lifters and high valve spring failures.  Or high failures with the oil pumps on the M8.  Harley needs to know that customers are upset, and that they do have failures.  In this modern day and age 100K miles on an engine is the norm, why can't the motorcycle industry do it other than goldwing?

I am anxiously waiting to see some high milage M8's. 

[VaEagle]

Wow there seems to be lots of frustration over reliability issues that is never ending on the web :

 

In the past many of us have brought up the fact that Harley and other similar designed motors are hampered by their marketing for the old school image/history of a motor that was the latest and greatest of about 1936 and it is hard to make that old design meet new gas mileage and pollution regulations while hauling around more and more gadgets and stuff that bikers can't live without today.
I know we all develop nostalgic feelings for the look,sound and feel of bikes that were "real bikes" when we were growing up and it is hard to let go. Most of us have a mental picture of what we think we look like riding a particular style/brand of bike and that is what any copany's marketing department loves. Harley in particular is fantastic as selling their bikes as part of a lifestyle not just a reliable means of transportation.
Otherwise many of us would be riding Honda Goldwings for the turnkey reliability they are known for but we convince ourselves "they don't have a soul" .
Yes and also every manufacturer has service and repair shops even Rolls-Royce or Lamborghini so I know even Honda has them.

[charles05663]

I recall that several years ago there was hope that HD would release a fully water cooled engine like the Revolution for the touring bikes.  I would rather have a more reliable bike then hold on to the past.

 

[Rooster]

I'm going to move on after this post, and I'm sure others will carry it on, and on... Not sure if my alternate opinion has had any effect.

My failure was heat related. The HEAT did in the valve seals. They leaked and eventually caused an exhaust valve to stick. Well you know what happens after that.

Yes I agree M8 design and all the time and effort HD put into that was to help with the valve train issues. I thought I said that??? I hope you can enjoy the bike you have. Good day.

I get mine back Tuesday!! Now hoping for the non-rain days to enjoy it some more.
Cheers.

I had the exact same thing happen on my 07 in 08. Mine was the rear exhaust valve. As you say prolly heat related. The tech had to beat it on both ends to get it loose. Guides and seals failed twice.