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Author Topic: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse  (Read 4665 times)

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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2018, 10:22:16 AM »

... ;D :huepfenjump3: :huepfenlol2:
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2018, 10:25:33 AM »

The Indian is looking better every day...
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2018, 10:38:19 AM »

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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2018, 10:42:22 AM »

This is what happens when they don't listen to their customers and quality control goes in the toilet.    :nixweiss:
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2018, 10:52:34 AM »

The Silver Tsunami isn't helping them either.
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2018, 12:24:12 PM »

I like this statement.... as sales have gone down profits are up almost 3% because they have not discounted bikes.  They seem proud of 2% profit (probably from t-shirt sales) to their shareholders while they are stacking up 30K -50K bikes in the showroom!   All awhile they are betting on 2 million new riders buying Harley's.  Sales of their entry level bikes are down 30%.  They aren't really chipping away at that 2 mil and changing around colors & handle bars on sporties isn't going to cut it.  My buddie wants a bike but can't seem to justify 45K for a 2wheel 2cylider bike when he just bought a nicely loaded F150 for the same price.  Therein lies Harley's problem.
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2018, 01:23:37 PM »

If they really wanted the answers to their problem all they have to do is ask us, the riders. Unfortunately, they don’t want to know because then the investors would show them the door.
This time they won’t pull the rabbit out of the hat and Indian will be building anniversary models every 5 years.
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2018, 07:53:02 PM »

It is as though the MOCO can't make the connection between their quality issues and their lagging sales.  At least not in public anyway.  I am surprised shareholders are not bringing up the quality problems at shareholder meetings...
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2018, 08:07:42 PM »

I really think they assumed brand loyalty would carry them, and this idea of Harley "lifestyle".  Turns out consumers aren't that dumb.  Their quality issues and, more importantly their handling of them (including dealer network) has hammered them hard.
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2018, 09:38:54 PM »

If Someone said in 1990 that General Motors would go out of business, everyone would have said that's crazy.  It's not out of the realm of possibility that HD could face the same fate, or be gobbled up by another company...history repeating itself?
« Last Edit: May 03, 2018, 09:40:35 PM by Mark »
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2018, 08:24:33 AM »

Just my observation.  When I bought Petunia in 2009, this site was hopping. As new model years were released the site became flooded with new site members and thousands of new posts.  It seemed like a hundred new posts per day.

Over the past few years this has not been the case. Recent releases of new model years have not brought the flood on new members like the past. I suspect it is closely related to HD’s drop in sales and the lack of interest in their offerings.

 :oops: :nixweiss:
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2018, 08:33:07 AM »

Just my observation.  When I bought Petunia in 2009, this site was hopping. As new model years were released the site became flooded with new site members and thousands of new posts.  It seemed like a hundred new posts per day.

Over the past few years this has not been the case. Recent releases of new model years have not brought the flood on new members like the past. I suspect it is closely related to HD’s drop in sales and the lack of interest in their offerings.

 :oops: :nixweiss:

We're still here, Chuck.....Neal is stuck with us.... ;D :huepfenjump3: :bananarock: :huepfenlol2:

I will agree with you that the traffic has lost some acceleration.... :2vrolijk_21:
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2018, 08:56:44 AM »

We're still here, Chuck.....Neal is stuck with us.... ;D :huepfenjump3: :bananarock: :huepfenlol2:

I will agree with you that the traffic has lost some acceleration.... :2vrolijk_21:


We are sumpin’   ;D :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21:
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2018, 09:11:22 AM »

JUST WONDERING IF ANY OF THE "SHARE HOLDERS" own a H-D? if not ,maybe they should try the product they're investing in. then a whole lot of corporate exec's would be out the door
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2018, 11:15:51 AM »

No new CVO Limiteds for me.  Not for $45K and you can buy a Wing, BMW, or Yammie with more features, handle and ride better, more power for $17K less.

FWIW-I don't think many motorcycles are being sold period of any brand.  And a Indian IMO is just about like a Harley in most regards so wouldn't buy one either.
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2018, 11:54:37 AM »

JUST WONDERING IF ANY OF THE "SHARE HOLDERS" own a H-D? if not ,maybe they should try the product they're investing in. then a whole lot of corporate exec's would be out the door

 :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21:

The shareholders that count (to the executives and the board anyway) are those big faceless entities like pension plans, not individual investors.  That kind of institutional investor doesn't care what kind of product you make, all they care about is the financials and future prospects.  With that in mind, I expect a lot of big investors to be selling off Harley stock as it becomes more and more obvious the management and the board of directors have no clue.

JMHO - Jerry
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2018, 12:15:34 PM »

Just my observation.  When I bought Petunia in 2009, this site was hopping. As new model years were released the site became flooded with new site members and thousands of new posts.  It seemed like a hundred new posts per day.

Over the past few years this has not been the case. Recent releases of new model years have not brought the flood on new members like the past. I suspect it is closely related to HD’s drop in sales and the lack of interest in their offerings.

 :oops: :nixweiss:

I've observed (felt) this as well. However, I attribute this more to the changing landscape of the internet. Specifically, the growth of apps and sites such as Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and such. Lots of stuff out there dragging eyeballs away. In addition, there are a lot of videos on youtube that fit a motorcycle niche.

There's nothing like the in-depth discussion and information on this board but it also requires an attention span a bit longer than the life of a fruit fly.

As Haird noted, we're still here - let's make the newcomers welcome.

Simon
 
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2018, 01:34:51 PM »

I've observed (felt) this as well. However, I attribute this more to the changing landscape of the internet. Specifically, the growth of apps and sites such as Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and such. Lots of stuff out there dragging eyeballs away. In addition, there are a lot of videos on youtube that fit a motorcycle niche.

There's nothing like the in-depth discussion and information on this board but it also requires an attention span a bit longer than the life of a fruit fly.

As Haird noted, we're still here - let's make the newcomers welcome.

Simon

Agreed the newcomers should feel welcome.  Reading some threads, yes, welcome to a "lifestyle."  Enthusiasm, love of motorcycling and all that involves.  Have been there since before I owned one, must have been about 12 years old.  First bike at 16 sealed the deal.

Other threads are more like "welcome to the funeral."   Doom & gloom and the MoCo will be out of business by next week or maybe next month.  Not exactly inspirational for a new rider who just spent $40-50k on their up-until-then Pride & Joy on 2 wheels.  Not to the point that the board has a "How Much Do You Hate HD" section, but it's a running theme of a sort.

Not advocating Pollyanna-ism.  Realism is fine, warts & all.  HD is suffering as much from the newer generations disinterest in riding on 2 motorized wheels (same deal is affecting non related industries, this generation, it be different) as it is from Indian having a decent product & the HD core riders getting too old to ride.  Bikes with known issues HD will not address is bad ju ju.

Good to see new riders, younger riders.  Hope they feel welcome here.  We are not all going to hell in a handbasket or on 2 wheels, sometimes it just seems like it.  Unless the 2 wheeled riding demographic changes, HD will have to adjust to reduced sales long term more than they already have.  What that means is anybody's guess.
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2018, 10:08:41 PM »

Agreed the newcomers should feel welcome.  Reading some threads, yes, welcome to a "lifestyle."  Enthusiasm, love of motorcycling and all that involves.  Have been there since before I owned one, must have been about 12 years old.  First bike at 16 sealed the deal.

Other threads are more like "welcome to the funeral."   Doom & gloom and the MoCo will be out of business by next week or maybe next month.  Not exactly inspirational for a new rider who just spent $40-50k on their up-until-then Pride & Joy on 2 wheels.  Not to the point that the board has a "How Much Do You Hate HD" section, but it's a running theme of a sort.

Not advocating Pollyanna-ism.  Realism is fine, warts & all.  HD is suffering as much from the newer generations disinterest in riding on 2 motorized wheels (same deal is affecting non related industries, this generation, it be different) as it is from Indian having a decent product & the HD core riders getting too old to ride.  Bikes with known issues HD will not address is bad ju ju.

Good to see new riders, younger riders.  Hope they feel welcome here.  We are not all going to hell in a handbasket or on 2 wheels, sometimes it just seems like it.  Unless the 2 wheeled riding demographic changes, HD will have to adjust to reduced sales long term more than they already have.  What that means is anybody's guess.

Well said iski. Could not agree more!
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2018, 11:18:35 PM »

Well said iski. Could not agree more!

Thanks HighOnHD. 

A shorter way to have said it would be "Rumors of HD's demise have been somewhat exaggerated."   8)
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2018, 12:16:11 AM »

with the dumping issues I have been dealing with I have done everything in my power to find something other than a Harley to fall in love with and I just couldn't to my complete disappointment. Bottom line to me is if you love these damn bikes as much as I unfortunately do there just flat out is nothing like it. I could list just about every competitor for Harley that I have test rode,reaserched like I was taking the test of my life and I could list everything that is better on them compared to a Harley and it would be a long list. They are either faster, handle better, better ergonomics, better suspension, much less money and certainly more reliable (just about every one of them) but DA-- it, I just don't feel the same way when I ride them.
I love anything that has a motor and 2 wheels and I definitely cant explain what I am saying here and I usually am fairly good about explaining how I feel.
Bottom line is after months of trying to find a way to stop dealing with these Harley issues and buying a different brand that is less money, faster, handles better and doesn't have sumping problems I have stopped trying to use my head and now am going completely with my gut and just going to accept that I love these da-- bikes and am going to stop torturing myself!
Cant wait to go ride my bike tomorrow...
Hopefully some of you out there "get it"
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #22 on: May 05, 2018, 09:20:21 AM »

This thread was not meant to do anything except post current market news.  I don't think anyone here wants to see HD in the mess they are in.  In today's market they need to offer a world class product at a competitive price.  HD needs to make some major changes - changes that we all as enthusiasts want.  If not, I believe we'll see more similar news.  In the mean time I'll continue to ride mine as will most everyone else here.  However, no way I'm upgrading to a new one, at least not anytime soon.
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #23 on: May 05, 2018, 09:38:29 AM »

This thread was not meant to do anything except post current market news.  I don't think anyone here wants to see HD in the mess they are in.  In today's market they need to offer a world class product at a competitive price.  HD needs to make some major changes - changes that we all as enthusiasts want.  If not, I believe we'll see more similar news.  In the mean time I'll continue to ride mine as will most everyone else here.  However, no way I'm upgrading to a new one, at least not anytime soon.

And this is one of HD's significant problems...die-hard customers wanting to trade for a new bike, but aren't willing to take the risk of paying premium prices for a problematic product.  I can't think of another company that suffers from so many self inflicted wounds.  If it takes outsourcing engine design, then so be it.  They did it with the Revolution engine, maybe they should have done it with the M8.
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #24 on: May 05, 2018, 10:21:49 AM »


Telling it like it is, versus just telling people what they want to hear, is always met with disdain for the teller from the folks who believe no one should ever say anything negative about their favorite product, person, entity, etc.  Such is life I suppose.  On the other hand, if no one would step up to say the Emperor has no clothes, things would never change for the better.  Harley has had decades to get their chit together, and they threw away all those opportunities thanks to greed and incompetence at the highest levels.  They had better hope they can make enough money selling glorified mopeds to the hordes of Indians and Chinese who will become the main market for their products, after they run off much of the American market.

Jerry
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #25 on: May 05, 2018, 10:47:42 AM »

with the dumping issues I have been dealing with I have done everything in my power to find something other than a Harley to fall in love with and I just couldn't to my complete disappointment. Bottom line to me is if you love these damn bikes as much as I unfortunately do there just flat out is nothing like it. I could list just about every competitor for Harley that I have test rode,reaserched like I was taking the test of my life and I could list everything that is better on them compared to a Harley and it would be a long list. They are either faster, handle better, better ergonomics, better suspension, much less money and certainly more reliable (just about every one of them) but DA-- it, I just don't feel the same way when I ride them.
I love anything that has a motor and 2 wheels and I definitely cant explain what I am saying here and I usually am fairly good about explaining how I feel.
Bottom line is after months of trying to find a way to stop dealing with these Harley issues and buying a different brand that is less money, faster, handles better and doesn't have sumping problems I have stopped trying to use my head and now am going completely with my gut and just going to accept that I love these da-- bikes and am going to stop torturing myself!
Cant wait to go ride my bike tomorrow...
Hopefully some of you out there "get it"

I feel for you SDCVO! Some people "get it" and some people don't. For the ones that don't... there are a lot of self help books out there to help them get over it, and if not maybe they should just move on with their lives! Life is too short to be grouchy and bitching and moaning all the time. :)
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2018, 04:26:14 PM »

I attended the southeast hog rally last year, attendance down with only a couple younger riders and their wives, mostly older couples and a lot of trikes, the new chrome less bikes do not appeal to me (57 yrs old) , with quality heading in downward spiral something has to change fast !
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2018, 07:01:31 PM »

Telling it like it is, versus just telling people what they want to hear, is always met with disdain for the teller from the folks who believe no one should ever say anything negative about their favorite product, person, entity, etc.  Such is life I suppose.  On the other hand, if no one would step up to say the Emperor has no clothes, things would never change for the better.  Harley has had decades to get their chit together, and they threw away all those opportunities thanks to greed and incompetence at the highest levels.  They had better hope they can make enough money selling glorified mopeds to the hordes of Indians and Chinese who will become the main market for their products, after they run off much of the American market.

Jerry
I agree whole-heartedly about the greed at the very top, but it seems like it was very competent, at least on previous-CEO Wandell's part.  In his quest to "align the interests of the CEO and the company with the interests of the shareholders" (meaning the big institutional investors and Wall St.), he deliberately and knowingly cut the price (and thus the quality) Harley paid for every part, piece, and process he could.  That, plus keeping the high prices on bikes, parts, and merchandise, made a lot of money for the company, made the stock price rise, and provided exorbitant salaries and bonuses for himself and his minions.

During his time as CEO, Wandell made over $1 billion dollars.  In that respect, he was very competent, but in the process he screwed a lot of customers, and now the fallout is settling on HD.  Of course, he doesn't care, as he got out just as the downturn began.  In the terms used by Wall St., HD had a big "bubble" going, which always leads to a bust.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2018, 07:04:46 PM by Para Bellum »
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2018, 12:37:30 AM »

/\ A sad but very true statement!
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #30 on: May 09, 2018, 07:37:47 AM »

How about this...Reduce bonuses benefits and salaries of top executives and leaders by 20% and then be willing to settle for a 20% drop in profits.    That could be used to drop prices by 15 to 20%.     

Let me think about this...instead of $40,000+ for a new SESG it would $32,000.....NOW YOU GOT MY ATTENTION
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #31 on: May 09, 2018, 08:34:00 AM »

Not going to happen.
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #32 on: May 09, 2018, 01:09:30 PM »

More feasible scenario would be they shut down another U.S factory, layoff all the workers & move to Asia somewhere. Give Execs raises for cutting costs & increase prices 10-15%.


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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #33 on: May 09, 2018, 01:40:00 PM »

I have never seen this before came in today’s mail.
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #34 on: May 09, 2018, 01:57:34 PM »

How about this...Reduce bonuses benefits and salaries of top executives and leaders by 20% and then be willing to settle for a 20% drop in profits.    That could be used to drop prices by 15 to 20%.     

Let me think about this...instead of $40,000+ for a new SESG it would $32,000.....NOW YOU GOT MY ATTENTION



The REAL assessment would be the NET AFTER TAX dealer profit between the two.

Also, Salary and cost reduction expense go 100% to the bottom line.



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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #35 on: May 09, 2018, 01:57:46 PM »

I have never seen this before came in today’s mail.

Got mine this past Saturday, Jim.  Don't it just make you wanta go getcha a new'un?
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #36 on: May 09, 2018, 02:11:28 PM »

Got mine this past Saturday, Jim.  Don't it just make you wanta go getcha a new'un?

Howard not even close.
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #37 on: May 09, 2018, 03:41:28 PM »

I believe this is the "discounting" HD has always resisted, masked as a special 115th Anniversary offering.  I just happened to be on the HD site today pricing out a CVO Ultra with the blue paint.  Base price, tax, $300 thrown in for B.S., and you're at about $47,500.  Throw in a HD tuner, slip-ons, some bling, maybe an extended warranty, and you're bouncing close to $50k.  I just don't think the market is there any longer.     
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #38 on: May 09, 2018, 03:48:39 PM »

I believe this is the "discounting" HD has always resisted, masked as a special 115th Anniversary offering.  I just happened to be on the HD site today pricing out a CVO Ultra with the blue paint.  Base price, tax, $300 thrown in for B.S., and you're at about $47,500.  Throw in a HD tuner, slip-ons, some bling, maybe an extended warranty, and you're bouncing close to $50k.  I just don't think the market is there any longer.   

The market for CVO was always smaller than the general HD market. I see so many folks griping about "Who can afford $45-50k?". Not very many people. It's an exclusive club. Quit griping if the price of admission is too high for you or buy a used CVO.

I decided that the CVO is now out of my league as a retiree. So I picked up a new 2018 Road Glide Special. I shopped around for the best deal I could find and then I went to my local dealer and convinced them to BEAT my best deal or watch me fly my ass to Chicagoland for a new Harley. They beat the deal.

DH
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #39 on: May 09, 2018, 04:40:54 PM »

The market for CVO was always smaller than the general HD market. I see so many folks griping about "Who can afford $45-50k?". Not very many people. It's an exclusive club. Quit griping if the price of admission is too high for you or buy a used CVO.

I decided that the CVO is now out of my league as a retiree. So I picked up a new 2018 Road Glide Special. I shopped around for the best deal I could find and then I went to my local dealer and convinced them to BEAT my best deal or watch me fly my ass to Chicagoland for a new Harley. They beat the deal.

DH
Actually I'm not bitching, just posting facts (the cost of buying a new CVO).  The market for $50k bikes has contracted as the peak spending years of boomers are in the rear view mirror.  I'm a late boomer, still working, and can afford a new one.  I'm just not willing to put $50k into a bike, especially one that has engine issues.  My last two CVOs cost about $28k and $33k...now it's $50k.  Yes, CVOs have always been exclusive; but, like you said, on a retirees salary, they have become pricey...but the market for touring bikes is retirees.  As I posted above, I just don't see much of a market for $50k baggers.       
« Last Edit: May 10, 2018, 07:48:54 AM by Mark »
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #40 on: May 09, 2018, 05:13:11 PM »

Actually, I'm not bitching, just posting facts (the cost of a buying new CVO).  The market for $50k bikes has contracted as the peak spending years of boomers are in the rearview mirror.  I'm a late boomer, still working, and can afford a new one.  I'm just not willing to put $50k into a bike, especially one that has engine issues.  My last two CVOs cost about $28k and $33k...now it's $50k.  Yes, CVOs have always been exclusive; but, like you said, on a retirees salary, they have become pricey...but the market for touring bikes is retirees.  As I posted above, I just don't see much of a market for $50k baggers.       

You and I are both being sensible. We have evaluated the exclusive $50k club and determined that we don't need to be a part of the club, at least in the future. That's up to everyone to evaluate and make their own decisions. I know plenty of riders out there are riding around on new and/or used Harley's, paying 14-15% interest on 72-month loans with big smiles on their face. Their Harley comes before everything else.

And then you have the folks that evaluated the CVO and opted for Indians, Hondas, or BMWs. Anyone looking for a touring/bagger should be making those evaluations and decisions.

Ride On,
DH
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #41 on: May 09, 2018, 05:35:46 PM »

I believe this is the "discounting" HD has always resisted, masked as a special 115th Anniversary offering.  I just happened to be on the HD site today pricing out a CVO Ultra with the blue paint.  Base price, tax, $300 thrown in for B.S., and you're at about $47,500.  Throw in a HD tuner, slip-ons, some bling, maybe an extended warranty, and you're bouncing close to $50k. I just don't think the market is there any longer.   

I have to agree....it's sure not there for me, anymore.  I can remember standing around with many CVO owners and it was always a conversation about the next one.  The past few years it's been more and more a conversation about "I'm done with them.....to much $$ for antiquated technology, etc. etc."

 My last CVO was bought in 2014 and it was a "used" 2013.  The days for a new CVO are over for me.  As a matter of fact, the days for a CVO used may be over for me......that touring model BMW is looking better and better to me......just waiting for Steve (Fullsac) to come out with forward controls and then I'm all over it!    :P
« Last Edit: May 09, 2018, 05:37:57 PM by JCZ »
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #42 on: May 09, 2018, 06:08:38 PM »

I have never seen this before came in today’s mail.

Yes that's the same card I started this thread about several days ago.....
https://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=115497.0
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #43 on: May 09, 2018, 11:14:06 PM »

Hmmm.. this is surprisingly a well kept secret, or maybe I am out of the Loop
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #44 on: May 10, 2018, 07:07:31 AM »

I believe this is the "discounting" HD has always resisted, masked as a special 115th Anniversary offering.  I just happened to be on the HD site today pricing out a CVO Ultra with the blue paint.  Base price, tax, $300 thrown in for B.S., and you're at about $47,500.  Throw in a HD tuner, slip-ons, some bling, maybe an extended warranty, and you're bouncing close to $50k.  I just don't think the market is there any longer.   

This discounting card is also NOT for the CVO's according to the fine print.... :(
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #45 on: May 10, 2018, 08:32:29 AM »

Got mine this past Saturday, Jim.  Don't it just make you wanta go getcha a new'un?

NO!  No discount for CVO.  Should be even higher discount for CVO.  Actually insulting getting that card,  03 was the last non-CVO I bought.  I have bought many CVO's since then.
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #46 on: May 10, 2018, 08:48:27 AM »

Harley has been adamant for a long time about never discounting prices, supposedly to "protect the brand".  It's the same reason given for their heavy-handed reactions to dealerships advertising discounted pricing of not only bikes but parts and accessories.  That is a hard policy to keep however when you're continually losing sales and reducing capacity.  Keep right on "protecting the brand" until you run it into the ground, or perhaps trade a little gross profit for more sales and keep the production lines running and the dealers in business.  Lots of folks in the auto industry have tried that hard line thing over the years, and most have had to soften that line when their sales fell.  I predict there will even come a time in the not so distant future when Apple will have to pull back on their pricing policies.  The economy is only rewarding a small percentage of the population, and those folks aren't the ones who drive these markets.  What used to be called the middle class is the real driver, and it's shrinking.

This $1500 promotion is unlikely to make a big difference in sales.  Considering the high prices of the bikes that amount doesn't exactly equate to a fire sale incentive.  If they get serious and bump that to $3000 or more, and more widely promote it, they might at least retain customers that are currently looking at lower priced competitors with better quality products.  I don't know about anyone else, but I have a really hard time convincing myself to buy any product that is lower in quality AND higher in price.

JMHO - Jerry
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #47 on: May 10, 2018, 12:21:24 PM »

I have purchased 8 bikes in 23 years and I did not get a coupon...
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #48 on: May 10, 2018, 12:29:35 PM »

I have purchased 8 bikes in 23 years and I did not get a coupon...

4 bikes in 16 years, no coupon. 

Not that I need a coupon.

But other people got them.

Dammit.

 ???
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #49 on: May 10, 2018, 01:09:15 PM »

12 Harley's since 1989...what's that, 29 years?...good golly, where has the time gone...and no coupons here, either. 

I did have to wait a few months on models during the '90's AND I did get a couple cheap "free" t-shirts in the process..... ;D :bananarock: :huepfenlol2:
« Last Edit: May 10, 2018, 01:41:55 PM by Haird »
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #50 on: May 10, 2018, 01:36:40 PM »

We are Baby Boomers...maybe the MoCo thinks you guys are dead. 
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #51 on: May 10, 2018, 01:54:30 PM »

Good one Mark....
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #52 on: May 10, 2018, 02:20:12 PM »

I got some free t shirts, probably those were the years HD's profits were sinking.   :huepfenlol2:

Considering the folks I rode with in the last 15 years or so as compared to now, unfortunately & sadly some of them are no longer riding. 

Or breathing.
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #53 on: May 10, 2018, 04:12:24 PM »

This discounting card is also NOT for the CVO's according to the fine print.... :(
Nor can anyone beside the person receiving the flyer or someone in their household (same address). Mine got immediately filed.... in the trash. 8)

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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #54 on: May 10, 2018, 04:51:34 PM »

I got one the other day, looked at it & laughed. $1500 off and not GOOD on a CVO. Think I’ll just keep my 2009 FLTRSE3 and become the old guy on a Twin Cam. I remember all those old guys on Knuckles & Panheads, maybe the TC’s will get that status someday.


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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #55 on: May 10, 2018, 11:18:21 PM »

I got an interesting phone call today from one of the local H-D dealerships and they wanted to know if I received my discount card and would I be interested in using it with them.
They then stated that I was selected to be part of a focus group to evaluate a 2018 Harley and wanted to know when one their salesmen could call and set up an appointment day for me to "evaluate by test riding some 2018 bikes".
I thought sales must be lagging if they have to use such flattery and B.S. to get me in the showroom.
I told them thanks but no thanks......
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #56 on: May 11, 2018, 09:07:28 AM »

Similar experience several weeks ago...received a call from a local dealership “offering me a personal, invitation only, demo day, etc., etc.”
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #57 on: May 11, 2018, 10:02:36 AM »

Was at Bootlegger HD yesterday getting a new rear tire and left side handlebar switch pack installed (one switch went out...the OD/trip/reserve trigger...instead of being able to replace one switch, had to replace the entire pack at $260 bucks.... >:(  sorry, rant mode started...I'll turn that off and continue...) anyhoo, walking around the dealership for a couple of hours made me realize there wasn't anything in there I just had to have.  No color, model, option, etc. bent my neck enough to cause any type of reaction but "meh".  The cherry red color is nice but on a RG custom at $26,000?  Not that many years ago I purchased a brand spanking new FLHTCU, two toned paint AND a brand new color matched Bushtec Genesis trailer for $3,000 less than that (tax, title, prep, hitch included).... :nixweiss:

Any time I'm in either Knoxville store, they are after me to test ride a couple different bikes and let them know my opinion.  Not that I'm any expert, I have purchased a few from them over the years and I've taken them up on it once or twice.  The last time it ended up costing me so no more.

However, yesterday I had the opportunity to be visited by one of the newer sales folks (they didn't know me) who walked up while I was perusing a used '16 SERGU and started waxing eloquently about all the great features of that bike and I really needed to ride it to feel the difference.  I played along and asked if that 110 was any better or worse than the new Milwaukee 8.  He was beside himself on the new motor and, while this particular '16 he was attempting to sell me was the exception to the rule, the old twin cam was junk. 

Playing dumb (which is very easy for me to do for some reason... :P ) I inquired as to any issues with the new motor?  Were there any glitches the MoCo may have had introducing an all new power plant?  Oh no, he said, and that I really needed to ride one.  It's the best motor out there.  Oh, by the way, he said, did you receive a "rebate" offer in the mail recently?  Why, yes I did but stated I thought the MoCo wasn't in the rebate business.  He went into the general sales speech as the service manager came up to let me know the bike was ready.  Mr. salesman asked what I had (he didn't see me ride up).  Upon the realization of what I was riding, he wasn't interested anymore and had to make a "phone call".  Funny stuff there....I love playing that game but even after all that, nothing stirred the soul on the dealer floor.

And isn't that the whole idea?  If your heart isn't twanged when you see/experience/ride a bike and there isn't any music, you walk.  The MoCo has a LONG way to go in getting to a place that provides quality, reliable product with soul stirring paint/design, rebate card or not...

That's my opinion anyway.
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08glide

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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #58 on: May 11, 2018, 11:26:21 AM »

I got some free t shirts, probably those were the years HD's profits were sinking.   :huepfenlol2:

when I bought my wife her 25 yr anniversary present (07 deluxe) the sales person told her to go pick out a COUPLE of shirts, (thinking t-shirts,like everyone else). so she comes strolling back up with two $65.00, ladies dress shirts. he never specified, his mouth wide open. he swallowed hard, she got the shirts. after that the dealer stated giving you A (as in 1) t-shirt that says "I got mine at ........". used to pick out a couple from any design off the shelf. not any more
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #59 on: May 11, 2018, 12:12:24 PM »

I think the MoCo is trying to get us off of CVOs and back on regular models.   :huepfenlol2:
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #60 on: May 11, 2018, 04:07:31 PM »

Haird has a point...I was talking to an old riding buddy when the '18s came out.  One of the first comments he made, and I agreed with, was "there's nothing that wows me any longer."  In years past, there would always be that one model, paint scheme, etc. that just made you drool.  Not so much anymore.   
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G 97

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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #61 on: May 11, 2018, 04:25:12 PM »

It’s jist not Harley-Davidson.  Motorcycles sales are down 50% prior to recession levels.  Some manufactures like Ducati have increased sales but the industry as a whole is down.  Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, Kawasaki all significantly down. 
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iski

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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #62 on: May 11, 2018, 04:36:28 PM »

It’s jist not Harley-Davidson.  Motorcycles sales are down 50% prior to recession levels.  Some manufactures like Ducati have increased sales but the industry as a whole is down.  Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, Kawasaki all significantly down.

I worked in a declining industry for years.  Each year the overall market shrank. Nothing we could do about it, consumer preferences they be fickle.  Not easy to grow a business in that shrinking environment, HD is struggling.  Companies I worked for would either:  1. Grow by taking competitor market share (as Indian is now doing), 2. Shrink & if they shrunk too far they were buyout targets or just went out of business or might as well have, or 3. Bought out other businesses to grow.  HD is in shrink mode now.  Can continue for a while but long term & severe enough, they will either sell out or go out.  Hoping that does not happen.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2018, 04:38:41 PM by iski »
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G 97

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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #63 on: May 11, 2018, 04:50:10 PM »

I worked in a declining industry for years.  Each year the overall market shrank. Nothing we could do about it, consumer preferences they be fickle.  Not easy to grow a business in that shrinking environment, HD is struggling.  Companies I worked for would either:  1. Grow by taking competitor market share (as Indian is now doing), 2. Shrink & if they shrunk too far they were buyout targets or just went out of business or might as well have, or 3. Bought out other businesses to grow.  HD is in shrink mode now.  Can continue for a while but long term & severe enough, they will either sell out or go out.  Hoping that does not happen.

Yep, they certainly have their work cut out for them.  Good companies fail in good times and Harley became fat and lazy.  They failed to capture the newer generations while taking their core group somewhat for granted and lost focus on them as well.  In addition, they did not improve in other areas like quality and dealer development fast enough  Their dealer development was and is lacking outside of organizing events and having clothes boutiques.  Funny thing is, their quality actually increased quite a bit over the past decade to a level that is actually pretty good.  But for sure, a long, tough road ahead. 
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bbrown

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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #64 on: May 11, 2018, 04:51:14 PM »

Haird has a point...I was talking to an old riding buddy when the '18s came out.  One of the first comments he made, and I agreed with, was "there's nothing that wows me any longer."  In years past, there would always be that one model, paint scheme, etc. that just made you drool.  Not so much anymore.


Good point Mark.  I am hoping the 2019’s will be great multi colored paint jobs with no flames and some chrome.      But my quess is the dark horse look will continue with cheap, boring one or two color matting finish all for 45,000+
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DesertHOG

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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #65 on: May 12, 2018, 11:18:41 AM »

....I love playing that game but even after all that, nothing stirred the soul on the dealer floor.

And isn't that the whole idea?  If your heart isn't twanged when you see/experience/ride a bike and there isn't any music, you walk.  The MoCo has a LONG way to go in getting to a place that provides quality, reliable product with soul stirring paint/design, rebate card or not...

That's my opinion anyway.

IMHO this is the sad truth of it. When you look at a Harley Bagger from afar it's difficult to tell if it's a 2009, 2011, 2014 or 2018. The last big technology jump was Rushmore and a lot of folks don't believe Rushmore was real innovation but a limited "catchup" step to the rest of the industry.

When paint colors and design are the only things that discern one model year from another - is that enough of a reason to buy a new bike? Perhaps if you wore out your current bike due to the excessive mileage you could justify a new purchase. However, I know a lot of folks are just going to keep fixing/servicing their current bike because the cost of renewal is such a barrier.

Honestly, when people come up and compliment your Harley most of them don't have a clue as to the year, model, or features of the bike. It's just cool, whether it's one year old or 11 years old.

DH
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MontSE103

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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #66 on: May 26, 2018, 03:57:32 PM »

I seen on the Nation Nightly news on Wednesday that Harley has been given a corporate tax break and now are shutting down the  Kansas City, MO plant and will offer 400+ jobs to relocate to another plant out East and the remaining will be laid off. They also mentioned that there are talks about opening a plant in Taiwan. What in the H$ll happened to made in America? Most of the chrome parts we by from Harley today have a sticker made over sea's. Harley cut the Dyna line out this year to save money and to get better sales. It's true the WOW factor is over for Harley and I can see the dark horse riding their way.

Here in Texas the major cities are fighting for Toyota's US head quarters to be located in their city. I think we should take a hard look up North to a little city named Detroit first.

America needs to take care of their own first and when we take care of this issue then look towards other countries and then help them if we feel a need to do so. We should not have Homeless Vets, Hungary Children, Vets without Jobs, and Companies SHUTTING DOWN DAILY.

« Last Edit: May 27, 2018, 10:43:32 PM by MontSE103 »
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iski

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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #67 on: May 26, 2018, 05:34:09 PM »

On second thought, I do like the "my oil good vs other oil not good" oil threads better.
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #68 on: May 27, 2018, 12:42:09 AM »

I seen on the Nation Nightly news on Wednesday that Harley has been given a corporate tax break and now are shutting down the ST Louis, MO plant and will offer 400+ jobs to relocate to another plant out East and the remaining will be laid off. They also mentioned that there are talks about opening a plant in Taiwan. What in the H$ll happened to made in America? Most of the chrome parts we by from Harley today have a sticker made over sea's. Harley cut the Dyna line out this year to save money and to get better sales. It's true the WOW factor is over for Harley and I can see the dark horse riding their way.

Here in Texas the major cities are fighting for Toyota's US head quarters to be located in their city. I think we should take a hard look up North to a little city named Detroit first.

America needs to take care of their own first and when we take care of this issue then look towards other countries and then help them if we feel a need to do so. We should not have Homeless Vets, Hungary Children, Vets without Jobs, and Companies SHUTTING DOWN DAILY.

Kansas City not St. Louis.  Thailand not Taiwan.  Tax incentive was very early in the Trump administration and not tied by legislation to either of these things.
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iski

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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #69 on: May 27, 2018, 02:01:50 AM »

Kansas City not St. Louis.  Thailand not Taiwan.  Tax incentive was very early in the Trump administration and not tied by legislation to either of these things.

In other news...... Rumors that the Pool Boy is dealing chlorine on the side to Indian & snorting Muratic Acid with the 2018 Miss Honda are also not true.
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Twolanerider

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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #70 on: May 27, 2018, 02:53:04 AM »

In other news...... Rumors that the Pool Boy is dealing chlorine on the side to Indian & snorting Muratic Acid with the 2018 Miss Honda are also not true.


Pool boy is pregnant.
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iski

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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #71 on: May 27, 2018, 12:07:40 PM »


Pool boy is pregnant.

Indian is the daddy?   :nixweiss:
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #72 on: May 27, 2018, 12:12:01 PM »

Indian is the daddy?   :nixweiss:

Now that there is funny
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #73 on: May 27, 2018, 03:37:32 PM »

Lol, yes sir’s, it’s a little early for the pool boy to be passing out info but, since he lost Willie G as a customer he’s had to work on Bill much harder. He might have a piece of the puzzle for next year,
He just needs a little more time.
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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #74 on: May 28, 2018, 01:24:52 PM »

We should not have... Hungary Children...

Don't worry about the Hungarian Children. They are being stopped at the border and separated from their parents.

 :P :P :P
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walstibsf

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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #75 on: May 29, 2018, 04:17:49 PM »

One indicator that MOCO has gotten too big for their corporate britches is when they quit selling parts to mom-and-pops.  Then they even sent out that any dealer caught doing so is out.  Who do they think helped get them where they were? 

Remember verizon when they were smaller?  They were nice, had customer service which was helpful and available....THEN CAME THE MONSTER THEY BECAME....

Starting to see a pattern?   Seems that the swelling of the wallet causes problems with the head.........just sayin'

My .02....

Take care and laters, eh?

Bobby
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laylonlor

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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #76 on: June 05, 2018, 09:48:32 PM »

i can't believe they make these bikes  , and void the warranty  when ya try a light weight mod., they need  to go under for being so stupid :drummer:
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laylonlor

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Re: Harley Sales Go From Bad to Worse
« Reply #77 on: June 05, 2018, 09:53:22 PM »

harley is betting that the only thing new harley riders care about is the stereo,   lmao
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