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Author Topic: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...  (Read 5215 times)

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DesertHOG

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...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« on: June 23, 2018, 10:02:47 PM »

I was going to get a Dyno pull on my bike today and I noticed a loud knock or rattle that was unusual. So instead of a Dyno, I had the bike left in service for diagnosis. Got a call, they're going to crack my 2018 114ci M-8 open and start looking at the CAM and Lifters.

Oh Joy. Will keep you updated. Btw, I just rolled over 10k miles on the bike.
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GregKhougaz

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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2018, 10:22:06 PM »

Sorry to read this, Simon. Let's hope it's something less than a failure.
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2018, 10:25:05 PM »

Sorry to read this, Simon. Let's hope it's something less than a failure.

Thanks Greg. Got my fingers crossed. It's under warranty and no modifications other than my HD dealer. The engine upgrade was part of the purchase order back in September. I also have a few other bikes I can ride :)

Simon
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2018, 11:00:40 PM »

Sorry to hear that Simon.  Really hoping the M8s wouldn't have problems like the TCs did / do.  Keep us posted and best wishes for getting it sorted soon. :2vrolijk_21:
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2018, 11:06:29 PM »

gosh, this stinks M8s i thought were going to be all the TCs were not. simon,hope this goes as well as it can for you. good luck! :2vrolijk_21:
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2018, 01:38:04 AM »

Hate hearing of the potential bad news Simon.  Will keep the finger crossed that it's an easy fix. Good luck man.
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2018, 07:28:41 AM »

Damn this stinks. Hope it isn't anything serious. May have to break out the Galaxy Glide for those short trips.

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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2018, 07:35:12 AM »

I hope this isn't a serious problem.  At least it is still under warranty.  Glad you have others to ride to hold you over during this difficult time., HA!
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2018, 12:40:17 PM »

 another disappointment ….. sorry to hear
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2018, 03:30:07 PM »

Even though the valve lifts are relatively low compared to the bigger Twin Cams, you're opening 2 and not 1, and it's all being done on one camshaft.  Will be curious to hear what is going on here, and, more broadly, if M8s will also have, let's sat, "valvetrain longevity issues".
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2018, 02:33:01 PM »

Sorry to hear this, they still use the same lifters as the TC, interested to see what they find
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2018, 09:37:50 AM »

Sorry to hear this, hope its easily fixed.  Its a nice looking blacked out ride.
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2018, 09:48:43 AM »

Thanks Greg. Got my fingers crossed. It's under warranty and no modifications other than my HD dealer. The engine upgrade was part of the purchase order back in September. I also have a few other bikes I can ride :)

Simon

Morning Simon,
This was your last post on this subject from this past Saturday.  Any updates? 
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2018, 10:17:03 AM »

So far 24,000 miles and mine is doing OK....Only 9 more months of warranty....
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2018, 11:09:28 AM »

Morning Simon,
This was your last post on this subject from this past Saturday.  Any updates?

They placed parts order for cam, pushrods, and more. The service writer was not my primary and useless as TOAB. I’ll call and find out more today.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2018, 01:40:59 PM by DesertHOG »
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2018, 01:55:18 PM »

I got back from the dealer and have some more information but not necessarily a clear understanding of the root cause of the failure. I suspect that the root cause had to do with an issue on the quality of the upgrade labor and either an oversight or poor assembly.

They found two distinct problems. My original complaint about the noise appears related to damage of the tappets (no idea how that happens). That, in turn, seems to have caused some markings/wear on the cam. So the replacement parts include;

2 Tappet Cover Gaskets
2 Exhaust Pushrods
2 Intake Pushrods
4 Roller Tappets
12 various O-rings including filler plug O-ring (?)
1 Cam Drive Sprocket Retention Kit
1 Camshaft Cover Gasket
1 Needle Full Complement Bearing
1 SE8-498 Power Cam
1 SE/Twin CAM Tappet Kit

The second issue found and covered under warrant was a Top End Leak with parts needed;

4 Rocker Cover Gaskets
2 O-Rings (various ID)
2 Coolant Manifold O-Ring

So, I won't see the bike until the end of next week. In the meantime, I ordered a Fullsac MX Header and the HD Auto-Tuner so it can be installed as part of this whole dealio.

Simon

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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2018, 02:08:03 PM »

Man, too bad you don't have another bike to ride while this one is in surgery and recovery...... ;D :2vrolijk_21:

Don't like to hear things like this on anybody's bike.  Good luck with these repairs, Simon.  Hope the HD Auto Tuner does well.  I'm interested to see how you like it but sad in the way you had to get it...
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2018, 02:15:05 PM »

Man, too bad you don't have another bike to ride while this one is in surgery and recovery...... ;D :2vrolijk_21:

Don't like to hear things like this on anybody's bike.  Good luck with these repairs, Simon.  Hope the HD Auto Tuner does well.  I'm interested to see how you like it but sad in the way you had to get it...

May just have to ride one of this German bikes for a while. Oh well.

The tuner was a choice, just like the header upgrade. After putting 10k miles on the bike in 5 weeks I found the bike lacking in "grunt" and top end speed. Climbing steep sweepers in the hills/mountain of Oregon was disappointing. The speedo would not hold speed unless I downshifted. I figure the header/tuner combo should help that a bit. Maybe a good solid install with help too.

A tech friend of mine tells me that the M8 (107? 114?) tops out at about 105mph at 5800 rpm. Anyone have any experience in that area they can share? I was used to the 110 TC being able to eventually climb to 115-120 mph range.

Simon
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2018, 02:32:54 PM »

Yes M8's are speed limited aswell as rev limited, can be sorted with a Powervision iirc
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2018, 02:36:57 PM »

Yes M8's are speed limited aswell as rev limited, can be sorted with a Powervision iirc

 :o :o :o
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2018, 03:10:35 PM »


It's actually pretty common for vehicles including motorcycles to come with electronic "governors" these days.  I believe Harley started doing it in 2014 with the RushedMore bikes, but if that's wrong they most definitely have been doing it on the M8's since day one.  Once you abandon the street legal Harley tuning device for a full featured but illegal system, you can change those speed and rpm limits.  I think I'd wait on that until I knew I wouldn't be needing the warranty, or stopped caring about the warranty, whichever comes first.

Jerry
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2018, 04:13:19 PM »


I think I'd wait on that until I knew I wouldn't be needing the warranty, or stopped caring about the warranty, whichever comes first.

Jerry

Exactly my thought.
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2018, 05:06:26 PM »

What Jerry said....also for at least a couple of decades in the automotive industry the norm has been that the top speed limiter has had everything to do with the speed rating on the factory stock tires. Back in the 90s I sold a buddy of mine a brand new Tahoe. On his way home he found a stretch of open highway and when top speed was 98 mph I got a phone call. So I checked the speed rating on the tires and guess what it was? Yep 100 mph. I don't know what our tires on our bikes are rated but I would assume that the 105 mph maximum speed chosen by Harley will "supposedly" have something to do with our safety. ???

Anyway good luck Simon and thanks for posting.
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2018, 05:50:02 PM »


Harley uses H rated tires, which is 130 mph max.  The one thing Harley does right, IMHO, is using tires that have higher load ratings and speed ratings than absolutely necessary.  When it comes to safety, I like my tires to be under-stressed, not on the ragged edge.

Jerry
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2018, 06:09:04 PM »

Why in the hell would anyone want to go over 100mph on a Harley on a public road?  Maybe I'm getting old but anything above 90mph on one of these 2-wheeled lawn mowers is dangerous.
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2018, 06:40:24 PM »

Why in the hell would anyone want to go over 100mph on a Harley on a public road?  Maybe I'm getting old but anything above 90mph on one of these 2-wheeled lawn mowers is dangerous.

I presume you don’t live out west in sparsely populated states.
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #26 on: June 26, 2018, 06:56:20 PM »

No, but I have ridden across the plains several times, steady at 90mph.  Engine had a little bit more, but the suspension didn't.
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #27 on: June 26, 2018, 07:47:10 PM »

Why in the hell would anyone want to go over 100mph on a Harley on a public road?  Maybe I'm getting old but anything above 90mph on one of these 2-wheeled lawn mowers is dangerous.

If it's too fast or too loud you're too old! lol
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #28 on: June 26, 2018, 07:50:35 PM »

Harley uses H rated tires, which is 130 mph max.  The one thing Harley does right, IMHO, is using tires that have higher load ratings and speed ratings than absolutely necessary.  When it comes to safety, I like my tires to be under-stressed, not on the ragged edge.

Jerry

I couldn't find what the H rating equated to Jerry, Thanks. And I agree completely with your statement, as per usual.

Good luck Simon!
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #29 on: June 27, 2018, 08:41:29 AM »

May just have to ride one of this German bikes for a while. Oh well.

The tuner was a choice, just like the header upgrade. After putting 10k miles on the bike in 5 weeks I found the bike lacking in "grunt" and top end speed. Climbing steep sweepers in the hills/mountain of Oregon was disappointing. The speedo would not hold speed unless I downshifted. I figure the header/tuner combo should help that a bit. Maybe a good solid install with help too.

A tech friend of mine tells me that the M8 (107? 114?) tops out at about 105mph at 5800 rpm. Anyone have any experience in that area they can share? I was used to the 110 TC being able to eventually climb to 115-120 mph range.

Simon

The M8 is governed to 107 mph, the 107, the 114 and the 117.  The HD warranty legal tuners will not remove the speed governor or the rev limiter.  I know the TTS tuner will for a fact.
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #30 on: June 27, 2018, 08:56:49 AM »

The M8 is governed to 107 mph, the 107, the 114 and the 117.  The HD warranty legal tuners will not remove the speed governor or the rev limiter.  I know the TTS tuner will for a fact.

The TTS route is tricky. Yes, you can restore the baseline. How easy is it to do that when you break down 1500 miles from home? Heard from one of my HD tech friends that he’s already seen 3 warranties voided due to ECM modifications.
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #31 on: June 27, 2018, 10:01:21 AM »

I'm waiting till the 2 yr warranty expires, as are most considering motor upgrades , got a PV just need to buy a new license frustrating .. yes

Got a 18 RGS like yourself, at least time will give more aftermarket options, seems to be lots of big bore choice options down the line
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #32 on: June 27, 2018, 10:12:54 AM »

Ol Hub would prolly say, limits? HA, no limits here.  ;D
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #33 on: June 30, 2018, 03:52:53 PM »

So I got a call from the HD Service Writer. They completed the scheduled work and there is still noise coming from the top end. They are ordering a complete Stage III Kit and starting over. Unbelievable. Guess the original Technician, one of their most experienced, really messed up the first install.
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #34 on: June 30, 2018, 04:12:20 PM »

So I got a call from the HD Service Writer. They completed the scheduled work and there is still noise coming from the top end. They are ordering a complete Stage III Kit and starting over. Unbelievable. Guess the original Technician, one of their most experienced, really messed up the first install.

So rather than actually finding the cause of the knock (and therefore any subsequent issues that may develop from it) they don't even look and just replace everything?  Even if they know they're going to throw the kitchen sink at it I'd want to know what the problem is.

They're aren't that many sources for a top end noise.  It's not like this is difficult diagnostics.....
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #35 on: June 30, 2018, 05:12:37 PM »

So rather than actually finding the cause of the knock (and therefore any subsequent issues that may develop from it) they don't even look and just replace everything?  Even if they know they're going to throw the kitchen sink at it I'd want to know what the problem is.

They're aren't that many sources for a top end noise.  It's not like this is difficult diagnostics.....
Simon did say it was a "HD Service Writer" that called him that would mean it's a HD Dealership with factory trained technicians (parts changers)…. so not in the least bit surprised they are going to throw the "kitchen sink" at it as that would be the quickest (not best) remedy to solve the problem... not saying it's correct but it is what it is. :nixweiss:

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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #36 on: June 30, 2018, 05:17:51 PM »

Simon did say it was a "HD Service Writer" that called him that would mean it's a HD Dealership with factory trained technicians (parts changers)…. so not in the least bit surprised they are going to throw the "kitchen sink" at it as that would be the quickest (not best) remedy to solve the problem... not saying it's correct but it is what it is. :nixweiss:

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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #37 on: June 30, 2018, 05:40:34 PM »

The TTS route is tricky. Yes, you can restore the baseline. How easy is it to do that when you break down 1500 miles from home? Heard from one of my HD tech friends that he’s already seen 3 warranties voided due to ECM modifications.
Even if you get the original HD map re-installed.....I have heard that it is date stamped with the 'new' installation date.....the bike itself rats you out!!!
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #38 on: June 30, 2018, 05:57:35 PM »

So rather than actually finding the cause of the knock (and therefore any subsequent issues that may develop from it) they don't even look and just replace everything?  Even if they know they're going to throw the kitchen sink at it I'd want to know what the problem is.

They're aren't that many sources for a top end noise.  It's not like this is difficult diagnostics.....

He stated that they believed that heavy duty springs were not used. I told him that would be unusual since the new springs are a part of the kit. I just get the feeling that the guys who installed the original Stage III kit just did a shambles of a job.
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #39 on: June 30, 2018, 07:10:09 PM »

Certainly, not good news on the M8 - I was thinking of buying a 2019 in a few months if any caught my eye.

RIDE ON......
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #40 on: June 30, 2018, 07:47:20 PM »

He stated that they believed that heavy duty springs were not used. I told him that would be unusual since the new springs are a part of the kit. I just get the feeling that the guys who installed the original Stage III kit just did a shambles of a job.


Always such a nuisance/pain to have to deal with problems.  Even more so when you having a nagging-or-worse feeling that the problems might have so easily avoided.  Thank god for spare bikes to ride.

So the thinking know is they replaced everything in the cam chest for what might turn out to be a broken valve spring or something else up top.  Yeah, thank god for spare bikes....
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #41 on: June 30, 2018, 11:05:31 PM »

Even if you get the original HD map re-installed.....I have heard that it is date stamped with the 'new' installation date.....the bike itself rats you out!!!

That's not true. When Mastertune restores the ECM back to original, it also restores the original date and time stamp.

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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #42 on: June 30, 2018, 11:32:09 PM »

He stated that they believed that heavy duty springs were not used. I told him that would be unusual since the new springs are a part of the kit. I just get the feeling that the guys who installed the original Stage III kit just did a shambles of a job.
That's why I've developed harleytechnophobia - fear of having a Harley tech anywhere near my bike, lol.  Seriously I've not done much in the way of performance upgrades to my various Harleys but the few I've done came back to bite me due to poor workmanship.  I know that even a bone stock motor from the factory may not be assembled properly but I gotta think there's a good probabilityi t will have been assembled correctly.  Having the motor torn down and rebuilt / upgraded by your friendly local Harley tech - maybe 50/50.  From what I've seen and experienced these tech are working on several jobs at a time, may be waiting on parts,  etc., and it's really easy to forget something important, skip over something, not torque a fastener properly, etc. - basically do a shambles of a job as you said Simon.

Hope they get it all sorted for you and your're good to go.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2018, 12:40:10 PM by ultrafxr »
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #43 on: July 01, 2018, 08:03:59 AM »

The TTS route is tricky. Yes, you can restore the baseline. How easy is it to do that when you break down 1500 miles from home? Heard from one of my HD tech friends that he’s already seen 3 warranties voided due to ECM modifications.

Question is was it a TTS tuner?  Did the owner flash it to stock?  The refresh is easy, the pain is having to take a laptop with you on the trip.

That's not true. When Mastertune restores the ECM back to original, it also restores the original date and time stamp.

Steve@fullsac.com

Thats just one of many reasons I uses TTS.  Local dealer who prior to the M8 only used Harley stuff is now using TTS.  And this is why.  They know people want to modify their bikes.
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #44 on: July 01, 2018, 08:47:59 AM »

He stated that they believed that heavy duty springs were not used. I told him that would be unusual since the new springs are a part of the kit. I just get the feeling that the guys who installed the original Stage III kit just did a shambles of a job.
Makes me wonder what the Tech was thinking. Is he disgruntled? Rushed? Under the gun for efficiency numbers?

My favorite tech whom is also a FB friend of mine recently quit wrenching and moved on to another occupation altogether due to stuff like I just mentioned. I'm glad they have another Master Tech on site I trust and the SM is also an MT that used to build engines down at CycleRama.

There's a member on here that had a 117 kit done by my friend/former tech that was quite pleased with his work along with a few dyno sheets on here as well with his name at the bottom of them that people are happy with. I'll miss him at the shop end of things but still have Him as a resource for answering questions or helping me empty a cooler.

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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #45 on: July 01, 2018, 09:34:22 AM »

Makes me wonder what the Tech was thinking. Is he disgruntled? Rushed? Under the gun for efficiency numbers?

I gave them plenty of time. They supposedly put the best technician on the job. I think one possible issue is that they did have him work other jobs while doing my upgrade. As I got this bundled with my deal I gave the shop a lot of latitude on the delivery date. Perhaps the back and forth between different jobs resulted in some drop in quality. (Hmm... where did I leave off, did I already put the heavy springs in?).

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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #46 on: July 01, 2018, 09:42:13 AM »

Today's Harley shops run like any modern repair shop.  Get these jobs done as fast and cheap as possible.  Around here, the really experienced guys have left the dealerships (I suspect replaced by cheaper labor).  Service managers used to be the older top techs but are now mostly just salesmen.  I sympathize with anyone in a position where they have to go through the dealer for repair/warranty work.
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #47 on: July 01, 2018, 09:59:57 AM »

Today's Harley shops run like any modern repair shop.  Get these jobs done as fast and cheap as possible.  Around here, the really experienced guys have left the dealerships (I suspect replaced by cheaper labor).  Service managers used to be the older top techs but are now mostly just salesmen.  I sympathize with anyone in a position where they have to go through the dealer for repair/warranty work.

A double-edged sword... when chit breaks, "Did you have all your service performed by an HD certified technician?"
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #48 on: July 01, 2018, 10:23:52 AM »

A double-edged sword... when chit breaks, "Did you have all your service performed by an HD certified technician?"

I've met and talked to many "H-D Certified Technicians" over the years, and I can assure you that description in no way shape or form can be assumed to mean a fully qualified and trained individual.  There used to be some very good techs in the dealerships around here, back before Harley forced out the old bike enthusiast dealers and replaced them with used car dealers and marketing types.  Now the really good ones are either retired or working for themselves.  The problem is finding them easily, most don't seem to advertise.

Jerry
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #49 on: July 01, 2018, 10:29:11 AM »

I've met and talked to many "H-D Certified Technicians" over the years, and I can assure you that description in no way shape or form can be assumed to mean a fully qualified and trained individual.  There used to be some very good techs in the dealerships around here, back before Harley forced out the old bike enthusiast dealers and replaced them with used car dealers and marketing types.  Now the really good ones are either retired or working for themselves.  The problem is finding them easily, most don't seem to advertise.

Jerry

How do you advertise how good you are? That's marketing aka propaganda. The only way really is through qualified independent reviews. Many online businesses formed around that model. TripAdvisor, Yelp, Angie's List, etc... You don't see many reviews for independent motorcycle shops and so you either roll the dice or end up with a dealership "HD Certified Technician". So, as painful as it might be, you get your warranty and/or extended warranty and let the HD shop do the work unless you KNOW someone better.

DH
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #50 on: July 01, 2018, 10:33:07 AM »

Yup, exactly why I started doing my own work years ago.  I could write a book on bad dealer experiences LOL.
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #51 on: July 01, 2018, 10:45:50 AM »

Yup, exactly why I started doing my own work years ago.  I could write a book on bad dealer experiences LOL.

Much more talented than me if you're doing engine repair and overhauls. That's beyond my depth and level of comfort. I check my oil changes 3x to make sure I didn't mess something up.
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #52 on: July 01, 2018, 11:43:47 AM »

You learn as you go, but thanks to shop manuals and online resources most jobs are ultimately not terribly difficult if you have the correct specially tools.  At $100/hr labor rate at most dealers, one can buy a whole bunch of cool tools.
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ultrafxr

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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #53 on: July 01, 2018, 12:46:29 PM »

I gave them plenty of time. They supposedly put the best technician on the job. I think one possible issue is that they did have him work other jobs while doing my upgrade. As I got this bundled with my deal I gave the shop a lot of latitude on the delivery date. Perhaps the back and forth between different jobs resulted in some drop in quality. (Hmm... where did I leave off, did I already put the heavy springs in?).
Spot on Simon.  I know I've been a victim of this on more than one occasion.  Dread having to take my bike in for anything but the most simple repair . . . one that I can readily tell if it was done properly.
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #54 on: July 01, 2018, 02:43:57 PM »

I gave them plenty of time. They supposedly put the best technician on the job. I think one possible issue is that they did have him work other jobs while doing my upgrade. As I got this bundled with my deal I gave the shop a lot of latitude on the delivery date. Perhaps the back and forth between different jobs resulted in some drop in quality. (Hmm... where did I leave off, did I already put the heavy springs in?).

Spot on Simon.  I know I've been a victim of this on more than one occasion.  Dread having to take my bike in for anything but the most simple repair . . . one that I can readily tell if it was done properly.

I think that's being too generous.  Many of us worked in shop environments in our lives.  Of some kind.  I grew up in a gas station then a garage then a garage/machine shop from the time I was 11 until 24.  Still play in such places to this day.

Even as a kid, with all the distractions of being a teen aged boy (other guys, girls that thought they could flirt for freebies, girls, girls, ballgame on the radio, whatever) I never didn't make sure I knew where I was at when I came back to a task.  Might find lost track of where something was while doing that inventory.  Still do that today.  More than once have bought a replacement of something when I knew it "had to be here somewhere."  The job didn't move forward without the mental and physical inventory though. 

This doesn't take long.  A good review is not a tens of minutes of proposition.  A tech working in a $60-$80-$100 hour shop should be working in a place where such basic care and caution is the expectation.  He should be working in a shop where when the expectation is not met he quickly discovers it was the requirement.
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #55 on: July 01, 2018, 07:48:55 PM »

It happens on the manufacturing level as well. I bought my first new HD at 17, an AMF 1000 XLCH. It vibrated excessively and used oil but HD kept saying that was normal so I disassembled it myself and found all four wrist pin clips missing and four large scores on each cylinder wall. HD denied warranty as I had done the disassembly. Good ole AMF days.
Bored and stroked it and it ran like a banshee but was a bear to kickstart.
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #56 on: July 06, 2018, 07:02:57 PM »

 I stopped by the Harley dealer today to see how my repair was going. Turns out they are still waiting on some parts. So I got to talking with the technician working on my bike. And he shows me the pistons, or a piston and the damage to the piston. And the damage is just as bad on the cylinder.

So now it becomes very clear as to why they are completely re-installing the 114 stage III kit.
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #57 on: July 06, 2018, 07:40:24 PM »

I stopped by the Harley dealer today to see how my repair was going. Turns out they are still waiting on some parts. So I got to talking with the technician working on my bike. And he shows me the pistons, or a piston and the damage to the piston. And the damage is just as bad on the cylinder.

So now it becomes very clear as to why they are completely re-installing the 114 stage III kit.

OK, so here's the important question.  Do they know what caused that damage, or are they just going to replace the pistons and jugs and hope for the best? 

Jerry
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #58 on: July 06, 2018, 09:06:43 PM »

OK, so here's the important question.  Do they know what caused that damage, or are they just going to replace the pistons and jugs and hope for the best? 

Jerry

Latter.

They had questions about the break-in and they suspect the rings didn’t seat properly. I am no expert but can rings have same seating problem at the same time. I still suspect an assembly issue but , again, I’m a novice. 
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #59 on: July 06, 2018, 09:39:29 PM »


If I remember correctly they found extensive damage in the cam chest first, now severe damage to the pistons and cylinders.  Have they bothered to look at the heads,rockers, and valves?  I'm wondering if the entire engine either suffered a lubrication failure, or large amounts of trash circulated throughout the engine.  And the bottom end needs to be inspected as well, since all that metal from the pistons and jugs went straight down into the crank. 

JMHO - Jerry
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #60 on: July 06, 2018, 11:23:22 PM »

Doing a quick glance with the image unexploded one might not appreciate how much material is gouged from that skirt.  That is a very nasty looking piston though.
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #61 on: July 07, 2018, 06:50:57 AM »

Unless there is more / different damage on the other side of that piston this had absolutely nothing to do with the rings not seating. If they actually think that was caused by the rings not seating they have no clue what-so ever.
That, IMO was cause by to much heat under the piston causing it to expand and "cold seize" (so to speak) to the cylinder. Without having it in my hands to look at more closely I would consider there was so much oil in the crank case from sumping that excessive pressure and heat caused the piston skirts to expand putting pressure on the cylinder walls.
The only other thing that would make any sense at all is if the piston to cylinder clearance was too small or if the cylinder was out of round to the point of causing too small of a clearance.
There would have been much more damage to that piston if no oil or poor oiling. I would also be checking for crank venting.

If the piston got hot enough to expand to that degree I would be very concerned about the crank bearings.
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #62 on: July 07, 2018, 07:50:15 AM »

Simon

This whole situation sucks beyond belief.

The one thing I see that to me is very curious is that the damaged area of the piston is offset toward the top wristpin, referencing the top of the picture, and not in the center between the two wrist pins. It could be that the piston or cylinder was a bit weaker in that area and it could be that that rod is twisted a bit.

Whatever caused this, and I tend to agree with Warlock about sumping being the root cause, they should absolutely go deeper and check/replaced the crank assembly because it was almost certainly damaged by the heat and metal missing from this piston....
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #63 on: July 07, 2018, 09:28:16 AM »

If I remember correctly they found extensive damage in the cam chest first, now severe damage to the pistons and cylinders.  Have they bothered to look at the heads,rockers, and valves?  I'm wondering if the entire engine either suffered a lubrication failure, or large amounts of trash circulated throughout the engine.  And the bottom end needs to be inspected as well, since all that metal from the pistons and jugs went straight down into the crank. 

JMHO - Jerry

Jerry:
It seems to me after all of these motor failures that Harley would stop the dismantling and rebuild process in the dealerships and just exchange/replace every one of these motors that meet the sump failure criteria.  They would save a lot of money in charge backs, parts and labor.

The value add is that the customer would be back on the road a lot quicker with a new(er) Harley Factory motor with the latest thinking in correcting this long standing issue.

Do you have a sense that we may have started seeing the latest new replacement motors and new
bikes coming out without the problem i/e new bikes and motors manufactured after the May 2018 time frame?  Hopefully so.

Perhaps a member feedback thread would be in order.

Best regards

Jerry

 

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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #64 on: July 09, 2018, 03:03:19 PM »

well just maybe you will get lucky and get a 19 motor if yours is trashed..  i looked a few minutes ago about and see someone got  19 for their bike as replacement motor.. hope his is doing great too. everyone deserves  good service whn you look at the prices paid for the  HD
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #65 on: July 13, 2018, 03:00:19 PM »

UPDATE

So they put the new 114" Stage III kit on the bike.
Still making strange noises.
Call HD Tech Services for help with diagnosis.
Diagnosis: Twisted/bent Crank, "We've seen it before." per HD Tech Services

Remedy: Brand new motor being shipping along with a new 114" Stage III kit.

Gah!!!!!!!!!!!! but I suppose that's about the best remedy possible.

Simon
« Last Edit: July 13, 2018, 03:26:59 PM by DesertHOG »
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #66 on: July 13, 2018, 04:45:32 PM »

So the diagnosis process goes like this:


Patient: Bloody toenail.

Dr. HD: (doesn't look up)  Hmmm, that tastes awful.  I have wiped it off, put on a bandage and now suggest you walk on it further and see how it does.


Patient returns:  Bloody toenail, also blood on toe is running down from shin.


Dr. HD:  Ah, yes, I see.  Well, they all do that when they're bleeding up there.  Clean entire leg from knee down, bandage on shin and back of leg) and, just to be careful, ace bandage on knee.  Walk on it carefully for 500 miles to break it in a little and see how it goes.



Patient returns:   Doc, there's still blood running down the leg.  Feeling weaker all the time now too.  Pants are soggy.  Also, there's this weird squirting thing going on.  I noticed it squirting on you a little last time too but figured you knew what you were doing.



Dr. HD:   Oh my, look at that.  There's a puncture in the case (of the leg) and you are definitely squirting blood out of that spot every time you have a heart RPM.  Don't worry too much.  We've got a new external leg kit on the way.  They all do that when they get a hole like that.   

Dr. HD keeps bike.  Ok, we have installed the complete external leg kit.  This wraps the area around the hole in your leg and we're sure there's nothing else going on inside.  Also no leg parts have come loose that might bother other parts of the system.  You are walking just fine.  And when you do feel like limping don't worry; they all do that.


Patient: ah, phuk



Ring, ring, ring:  Hello, this is Dr. HD's office.  Can I help you. 
Roadside Ambulance Assistance:   Hello Dr HD, this is Harold Oswalt Goswin (HOG, get it?) with Roadside, we've got your patient on the side of the road.  He stroked out and had a seizure.  I think it's time to call the factory.
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #67 on: July 13, 2018, 05:57:24 PM »

I laughed out loud at that one. Just hope that scenerio stays away from me. Good luck Simon and anyone else involed.
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #68 on: July 13, 2018, 07:01:30 PM »

HD Factory: That puncture in that leg is a birth defect. We’ll have the factory send out a new one with the same VIN.
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #69 on: July 13, 2018, 08:14:06 PM »

HD Factory: That puncture in that leg is a birth defect. We’ll have the factory send out a new one with the same VIN.


:huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2:  :2vrolijk_21:

Excellent !


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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #70 on: July 14, 2018, 12:08:50 AM »

Wow Simon, hope they get you fixed not repaired soon. M19 on the way hopefully. That would be the 19 like Heatwave got.
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #71 on: July 14, 2018, 12:25:20 AM »

Wow Simon, hope they get you fixed not repaired soon. M19 on the way hopefully. That would be the 19 like Heatwave got.

I don't know but it's a possibility I guess. Just hope they pick a good one off the line. Wonder how many new engines they've exchanged under warranty so far. If that original crank was bent out of the factory what kind of QC are they running?

DH
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #72 on: July 14, 2018, 01:39:32 AM »

I don't know but it's a possibility I guess. Just hope they pick a good one off the line. Wonder how many new engines they've exchanged under warranty so far. If that original crank was bent out of the factory what kind of QC are they running?

DH
You cant get a 19 motor (no one can) but you can get the design that they will put in the 19 with engine numbers that will be from your 18. Each time they install a new motor they will give you same engine number (or bike would be illegal) with a letter designation showing 2nd iteration (or 3rd, 4th--). Kinda splitting hairs as long as they don't change any emissions on new design for 19 in  which case they can not release until cleared and published by US EPA.
In my "saga" I have been through with MOCO the rep told me they have come up with solution that will be standard on the 19 and they have been using around the world without problems. To be fair though he told me that also when they sent my 3rd motor out to machine shop so hopefully this time he is right. It does seem like the people that have been posting recently problems don't seem to be re posting new motors are failing.
Please keep us informed when you get your bike back your progress with how it goes!
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #73 on: July 14, 2018, 06:54:01 AM »

UPDATE

So they put the new 114" Stage III kit on the bike.
Still making strange noises.
Call HD Tech Services for help with diagnosis.
Diagnosis: Twisted/bent Crank, "We've seen it before." per HD Tech Services

Remedy: Brand new motor being shipping along with a new 114" Stage III kit.

Gah!!!!!!!!!!!! but I suppose that's about the best remedy possible.

Simon




Ahem

Who was it said it was twisted? LOL

I hope they get the engine fixed and I hope that HD gets this whole M8 fiasco sorted out before it literally drives them into bankruptcy.

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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #74 on: July 14, 2018, 08:13:02 AM »

You cant get a 19 motor (no one can) but you can get the design that they will put in the 19 with engine numbers that will be from your 18. Each time they install a new motor they will give you same engine number (or bike would be illegal) with a letter designation showing 2nd iteration (or 3rd, 4th--). Kinda splitting hairs as long as they don't change any emissions on new design for 19 in  which case they can not release until cleared and published by US EPA.
In my "saga" I have been through with MOCO the rep told me they have come up with solution that will be standard on the 19 and they have been using around the world without problems. To be fair though he told me that also when they sent my 3rd motor out to machine shop so hopefully this time he is right. It does seem like the people that have been posting recently problems don't seem to be re posting new motors are failing.
Please keep us informed when you get your bike back your progress with how it goes!
Yes, that is what I really meant.
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #75 on: July 15, 2018, 06:23:18 PM »

So, I buy the 2018 CVO 117 and have all options I could think of including stage IV. I have the bike 3 days, about 400 miles, and the tappet gets loud. The dealership fixes it and I'm on my way. Still a happy customer. 9,400 miles later, because I ride it, same thing only now I hear things flying around the motor. Then the compression relief valve opens and it sounds like the head blows. I pull off of the 1st exit, having no power, and she dies. The tappet disintegrated! Dealership cracks her open and the tappet won't come out. After further break down, the needle bearings are inside my oil pump meaning they passed through the entire motor. Corporate approves a short block but is hesitant to approve a stage IV kit. I'm looking at the marks on my sleeves, gouges on my pistons, An oil pump with grooves cut into the aluminum from circulating bearings and debris, a tappet that no longer resembles one as the roller has gone through my baby. Then I find out that the computer mapping for the 117 stage four was not available so corporate told the dealer to map it for a 110ci. WTF! I just handed them $52,000 and you deceive me on top of my mechanical problems? Now the dealership is building my M8 rather than the factory.
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #76 on: July 15, 2018, 07:48:27 PM »

So, I buy the 2018 CVO 117 and have all options I could think of including stage IV. I have the bike 3 days, about 400 miles, and the tappet gets loud. The dealership fixes it and I'm on my way. Still a happy customer. 9,400 miles later, because I ride it, same thing only now I hear things flying around the motor. Then the compression relief valve opens and it sounds like the head blows. I pull off of the 1st exit, having no power, and she dies. The tappet disintegrated! Dealership cracks her open and the tappet won't come out. After further break down, the needle bearings are inside my oil pump meaning they passed through the entire motor. Corporate approves a short block but is hesitant to approve a stage IV kit. I'm looking at the marks on my sleeves, gouges on my pistons, An oil pump with grooves cut into the aluminum from circulating bearings and debris, a tappet that no longer resembles one as the roller has gone through my baby. Then I find out that the computer mapping for the 117 stage four was not available so corporate told the dealer to map it for a 110ci. WTF! I just handed them $52,000 and you deceive me on top of my mechanical problems? Now the dealership is building my M8 rather than the factory.

More than a few similarities though, fingers crossed, the MOCO isn't screwing me.
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #77 on: July 15, 2018, 10:23:07 PM »


 Now the dealership is building my M8 rather than the factory.



On their dime?
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #78 on: July 28, 2018, 06:50:22 PM »

My bike is out of HD Jail. New motor with the 114” Stage III upgrade. I'm taking her to "Shark Week" which is the Roadglide.org National Rally. 500 Mile break-in and 1k service coming up this week!

I had them throw on a FULLSAC Header and an automatic tuning module. She's got a great grunt now.

DH
« Last Edit: July 28, 2018, 06:52:12 PM by DesertHOG »
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #79 on: July 28, 2018, 07:12:53 PM »

Simon I feel your pain and your relief at getting a new motor.  Been there, done that four times with the 110s.  With Harley the fun never ends, lol.  Good luck in getting lots of miles and smiles from this new motor.
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #80 on: July 28, 2018, 09:02:02 PM »

My bike is out of HD Jail. New motor with the 114” Stage III upgrade. I'm taking her to "Shark Week" which is the Roadglide.org National Rally. 500 Mile break-in and 1k service coming up this week!

I had them throw on a FULLSAC Header and an automatic tuning module. She's got a great grunt now.

DH
Nice, enjoy it Simon!
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #81 on: July 28, 2018, 11:13:11 PM »

Have fun with it Simon.  Have never done the Shark Week event so will be looking forward to your stories. 
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #82 on: July 29, 2018, 08:36:12 AM »

Enjoy the new motor on your Road Glide Simon.  Have fun at Shark week.  Wish I could go
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #83 on: July 29, 2018, 09:16:21 AM »

Glad to hear you got it back. Hope it treats you well. let us know after a few miles.
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #84 on: July 31, 2018, 02:02:07 PM »

They placed parts order for cam, pushrods, and more. The service writer was not my primary and useless as TOAB. I’ll call and find out more today.
you call  HD customer service and tell them? you want those people to know . surprised factory  tech did not want to peek at more before tossing parts into it. only to find out it needed to be looked at a bit deeper.  but it is what it is. hope you have an easy fix regardless
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #85 on: August 01, 2018, 09:43:54 PM »


I had them throw on a FULLSAC Header and an automatic tuning module. She's got a great grunt now.

DH
[/quote]

During a warranty repair they put on an aftermarket header? Wow! That's awesome.

Steve@fullsac.com
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #86 on: August 02, 2018, 02:31:17 AM »

I had them throw on a FULLSAC Header and an automatic tuning module. She's got a great grunt now.

DH


During a warranty repair they put on an aftermarket header? Wow! That's awesome.

Steve@fullsac.com

Yup. Everyone tells me I’m gonna get screwed but they offered me a V&H and I told them they’re getting a FULLSAC. Really cooled of my calf muscle. Engine broke in now and gets an oil change this weekend with a dyno pull. Will be interesting to se the result.
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #87 on: August 02, 2018, 03:04:53 AM »

Yup. Everyone tells me I’m gonna get screwed but they offered me a V&H and I told them they’re getting a FULLSAC. Really cooled of my calf muscle. Engine broke in now and gets an oil change this weekend with a dyno pull. Will be interesting to se the result.
Dyno pull? Coulda swore you did that coming back to Durango this afternoon. It didn't have any issues getting moving. That guy behind us gave up trying to keep up about half way down the mountain. Sounds great running behind it.

Sent from my boring Droid phone.

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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #88 on: August 02, 2018, 08:38:09 AM »

Yup. Everyone tells me I’m gonna get screwed but they offered me a V&H and I told them they’re getting a FULLSAC. Really cooled of my calf muscle. Engine broke in now and gets an oil change this weekend with a dyno pull. Will be interesting to se the result.

Simon

Just my .02.
Wear your lucky socks and keep a rabbits foot hidden on the bike for the next 5000 miles. See a black cat, immediate U turn. Find your local witch Doctor and have him check your bike for Demons. Maybe do a quick exorcism or at least chant some gibberish while blowing huge clouds of Rasta smoke near the AC while it idles. (The mechanic at your dealer most likely did this already while celebrating the fact that it started.) Most importantly, maintain possession of your stock header and all of the mounting hardware.  If you have it, you most likely will never need it. Murphy's law 101.

Best of luck and ride safe!

Steve@fullsac.com
« Last Edit: August 02, 2018, 08:47:34 AM by Fullsac Performance »
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DesertHOG

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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #89 on: August 02, 2018, 10:05:25 AM »

Simon

Just my .02.
Wear your lucky socks and keep a rabbits foot hidden on the bike for the next 5000 miles. See a black cat, immediate U turn. Find your local witch Doctor and have him check your bike for Demons. Maybe do a quick exorcism or at least chant some gibberish while blowing huge clouds of Rasta smoke near the AC while it idles. (The mechanic at your dealer most likely did this already while celebrating the fact that it started.) Most importantly, maintain possession of your stock header and all of the mounting hardware.  If you have it, you most likely will never need it. Murphy's law 101.

Best of luck and ride safe!

Steve@fullsac.com

I’ve got the OEM head pipe. Tell me more about hardware they might not have reused and should have given me.
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Fullsac Performance

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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #90 on: August 02, 2018, 10:30:51 AM »

I’ve got the OEM head pipe. Tell me more about hardware they might not have reused and should have given me.

In addition to the headpipe, you would need the crossover, a round crossover clamp, an elongated hinge clamp, black hanger bracket , and four 1/4 20 allen bolts. Two short ones from the crossover hanger and two longer ones from the oil pan. Last but not least, two OEM heatshield clamps from the cat heatshield. All of these parts would have all been removed and not reused during the MX install.

Steve@fullsac.com
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kojak

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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #91 on: August 03, 2018, 09:21:07 AM »

Oh boy!
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #92 on: September 08, 2018, 09:33:02 PM »

Simon, sure hope your bike is still running great. After the Harley dealer in Albuquerque installed my new 110 motor on my FLTRUSE at 18k miles, it took 3 dealers a year to get all the problems worked out. In the short times I had the bike between dealers, I only had time to put about 2500 miles on last year. Good luck!
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lowflight

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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #93 on: September 08, 2018, 10:14:34 PM »

Hope it is all fixed and running well now Simon. Some how I missed this. After reading of all your problems I found myself wondering how many times I said WTF while reading this thread.
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #94 on: September 11, 2018, 11:16:02 AM »

I've got 4k on the new motor and all's going well.
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #95 on: September 12, 2018, 08:20:09 AM »

I've got 4k on the new motor and all's going well.

That is good to hear Simon.
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Re: ...and so it starts. Knock, knock, knock ...
« Reply #96 on: September 12, 2018, 09:04:12 AM »

Good to hear Simon. :2vrolijk_21:
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