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Author Topic: Harley moving jobs to Europe  (Read 3933 times)

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Ironhorse

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Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
« Reply #30 on: June 26, 2018, 01:01:29 AM »

i don't want to see something built offshore and then sent back here.  that would not please me at all.....

I think may be happening already. Aren’t the Street 500 and 750 made overseas?
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skratch

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Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
« Reply #31 on: June 26, 2018, 07:34:40 AM »

yes, and no.  they are made overseas, but only for the overseas market.  the ones that are sold for the us market are mfg here in the us.
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Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
« Reply #32 on: June 26, 2018, 08:37:01 AM »

i have to partially agree with your post.  there is no way that they could have decided to shut kansas city, consolidate in york, move production overseas, etc. in such a short amount of time.  i would guess that this has been in the works for two years or more.

and, as long as they keep it as intended, assembling bikes for that market, then i don't have a problem with it.  it's a smart move.  why would you build something here and pay heavy duties and taxes on it when you ship it overseas, if you could assemble it overseas, sell it, and avoid the large tax penalty?  but i don't want to see something built offshore and then sent back here.  that would not please me at all.....

And I can agree with your statement.  As long as they only assemble bikes for that market in that market, it's understandable and tolerable.  After all, they seem to love to copy the automotive industry and that industry has done that same thing for a very long time.  Ford for instance had Ford of Europe, Ford of Britain, Ford of South America, etc for a very long time.  It made sense to build cars for a particular market in that market.  But that entire idea has been bastardized in the past decade or two, such that now many of their vehicles for this market are being built offshore and shipped here.  Over in Detroit GM doesn't even make a pretense about trying to build in this market for this market, they are steadily moving more and more production to China for instance and have several models that are only built there.  The plans are to continue moving production offshore.  So much for thanking the taxpayers who bailed them out in this country.

In the end it doesn't matter to me personally, since I have no interest in buying anything from H-D (or from GM for that matter).  But it does bother me philosophically.  There comes a point where sellers of expensive products will reap what they sow, as those who used to make good wages building those products and used that money to buy those products themselves will no longer be able to buy them.  It's like the old saying about automation taking jobs; how many robots have you seen walk into a showroom and buy a new car?  These days half the population of this country cannot afford to buy even the entry level products.  I see nothing on the horizon that is going to make that situation any better, but I see plenty that tells me it will get worse.

JMHO - Jerry
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FLSTFI Dave

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Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
« Reply #33 on: June 26, 2018, 08:55:59 AM »



Personal Observations on Jobs

I was driving the backcountry roads of Missouri and Kansas my last trip. Lots of "Jobs Available" signs on gas stations, convenience stores, and small manufacturing plants. I'm sure any displaced workers can find a job if they really want one, maybe even two jobs since a lot of jobs these days are part-time to reduce the burden of benefits costs on employers.

As Harley is shutting the Kansas City Plant over half the jobs are moving to York PA.  The plant being shut was planned with the demise of the V-Rod and Dyna.  that left the sportster and the Street as the only bikes built there.  The street sells poorly in the USA, better in Brazil and Asia.
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Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
« Reply #34 on: June 26, 2018, 08:58:58 AM »

Jerry (grc) is spot on.  :2vrolijk_21:
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FLSTFI Dave

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Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
« Reply #35 on: June 26, 2018, 09:00:24 AM »

I think may be happening already. Aren’t the Street 500 and 750 made overseas?
Kansas City, Brazil and either Taiwan or India, don't remember which.  The Kansas City ones are for the US market.  The other two are for foreign markets because of very high tariffs.
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scottt

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Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
« Reply #36 on: June 26, 2018, 09:15:42 AM »

In my opinion; we sometimes forget that Harley is a publicly traded company. Their highest fiduciary duty is to the shareholders,that's just reality.

It's my belief that Harley is fighting to maintain high margins, to themselves and the dealers. Harley forced dealers to build huge, fancy dealerships on expensive freeway locations. These dealerships will not survive without significant profit margins.

It's my belief that their high margin, high volume approach is leading them to seek significant cost cutting. Labor and quality have suffered.

BMW as one example has managed to build high quality motorcycles in Germany, using very well paid employees, outsourcing fewer parts than Harley. Both are publicly traded companies, it's a difference in priorities.

Harley should stand for American made, high quality. Sales volume should follow, not leed. Harley should be the "Snap On" of motorcycles.

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Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
« Reply #37 on: June 26, 2018, 09:17:30 AM »

I wonder too if we kind of did this to ourselves by not working out an acceptable compromise between heavy manufacturing and it's pollution problems. I wonder if it's not only cheaper but easier to get around environmental issues overseas?
Then you have the customer greed of wanting all the latest bells and whistles (along with safety features) that makes a vehicle full of electronics and sensors which i'm sure drives up prices too. It's hard to find stripped down models anymore that someone in a lower income bracket can afford.
I remember when people would work for many years to afford their dream vehicle and sometimes they couldn't afford one until retirement or when the kids grew up and left the home. Vehicles also lasted longer and you could see cars 20 or 30 years old on the road, think you will see the modern cars on the road 30 years from now?
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Ironhorse

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Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
« Reply #38 on: June 26, 2018, 09:19:20 AM »

So what’s the difference between bikes and clothes?

Most of the HD branded clothes is made overseas and shipped back here for us to buy. A robot can’t walk into a dealership, buy Pakistan leather, Chinese cotton, and Indonesian boots either. Yes, there’s the old argument that paying Bob and Sally in the USA to make your clothes costs way more than paying Abdul and Depali in Pakistan so we, the US consumers will save more in the end.

It’s also about the labor costs. Buy a robot and pay once. Hire labor and pay weekly. It costs money to hire people to pick our fruits and veggies. We can either pay US workers decent living wages, and pay $10.00 for an apple in the market, or hire low wage no benefit workers. Or we buy fruits overseas.

We do it with cars, so why not motorcycles?
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Haird

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Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
« Reply #39 on: June 26, 2018, 09:28:28 AM »

VW - German - US manufacturing plant
Nissan - Japanese - US manufacturing plant
Honda - Japanese - US manufacturing plant
BMW - German - US manufacturing plant
Toyota - Japanese - US manufacturing plant
Mercedes - German - US manufacturing plant
Volvo - Swedish via China - US manufacturing plant
Hyundai - Korean - US manufacturing plant
Kia - Korean - US manufacturing plant
Subaru - Japanese - US manufacturing plant (thanks for the reminder, Charles.  Indiana I believe)

GM (Chevrolet-Buick-GMC-Cadillac) - US - US, Mexico, Germany (Opel) and Canadian manufacturing plants
Fiat-Chrysler - US via Italy - US and Canadian manufacturing plants
Ford - US - US and Mexico manufacturing plants

The car that is now the most "made in USA" vehicle?  Toyota Camry

I'm with you fellers when it comes to made in the USA and will look for that when I'm buying items.  Few, if any, options are available when it comes to vehicles "made in the US" anymore, including bikes.  The MoCo and Polaris are about the closest companies, vehicle wise, that has most of their manufacturing capabilities in the US with the exception of some Polaris off-road vehicles that are made in Mexico using made in the US motors/drivetrains and the MoCo making parts and bikes in Brazil, Thailand, etc but the main brunt of the fleet is still in Milwaukee and York.   Victory and Indian are fully made in the US.  The MoCo is looking to move more manufacturing offshore but I'm not sure Polaris is ready for that....yet.

Harley making vehicles elsewhere?  Yep, it burns the butt just like that 3 foot flame but it's a reality even with the recent cut in the corporate tax rate.  Kansas City had about 800 jobs I believe, 400 of which are moving/created at the York plant.  Bad for KS and MO but good for PA.
The 500 and 750 were really meant to be sold in India/China where the vehicles are taxed based on motor size.  Sportsters and Big Twins are a premium item there so the water cooled 500 and 750 Street were meant as a more affordable way for everyone in the world to ride a Harley....made in countries with more favorable tariff agreements with those countries....just like everyone else does it all around the world.

There are lots of things that drive profits, some of which we are experiencing in poor quality/design/customer service, but this trend in tarif avoidance has been around a long time.  The MoCo may be riding the caboose of this train but they are on it and as long as it keeps HD on the train, is that really a bad thing?

« Last Edit: June 26, 2018, 09:45:07 AM by Haird »
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charles05663

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Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
« Reply #40 on: June 26, 2018, 09:42:17 AM »

VW - German - US manufacturing plant
Nissan - Japanese - US manufacturing plant
Honda - Japanese - US manufacturing plant
BMW - German - US manufacturing plant
Toyota - Japanese - US manufacturing plant
Mercedes - German - US manufacturing plant
Volvo - Swedish via China - US manufacturing plant
Hyundai - Korean - US manufacturing plant
Kia - Korean - US manufacturing plant

GM (Chevrolet-Buick-GMC-Cadillac) - US - US, Mexico, Germany (Opel) and Canadian manufacturing plants
Fiat-Chrysler - US via Italy - US and Canadian manufacturing plants
Ford - US - US and Mexico manufacturing plants

The car that is now the most "made in USA" vehicle?  Toyota Camry

I'm with you fellers when it comes to made in the USA and will look for that when I'm buying items.  Few, if any, options are available when it comes to vehicles "made in the US" anymore, including bikes.  Polaris is about the closest company, vehicle wise, that has most of their manufacturing capabilities in the US with the exception of some off-road vehicles that are made in Mexico using made in the US motors/drivetrains.  Victory and Indian are fully made in the US.

Harley making vehicles elsewhere?  Yep, it burns the butt just like that 3 foot flame but it's a reality even with the recent cut in the corporate tax rate.  Kansas City had about 800 jobs I believe, 400 of which are moving/created at the York plant.  Bad for KS and MO but good for PA.
The 500 and 750 were really meant to be sold in India/China where the vehicles are taxed based on motor size.  Sportsters and Big Twins are a premium item there so the water cooled 500 and 750 Street were meant as a more affordable way for everyone in the world to ride a Harley....made there also to avoid the tarifs....just like everyone else does it all around the world.

There are lots of things that drive profits, some of which we are experiencing in poor quality/design/customer service, but this trend in tarif avoidance has been around a long time.  The MoCo may be riding the caboose of this train but they are on it and as long as it keeps HD on the train, is that really a bad thing?

Don't for get Subaru.  Japanese made in USA.

From your post, it shows me that clearly that MoCo should be able to make motorcycles in the US at a competitive price and quality.  If it were not so, then foreign manufactures would not produce them here.  They simply choose not to.

Also, I believe most of the cars are made in non-union states.  My father was an attorney who worked for unions (IBEW).  I have since moved away from the belief that unions are a good thing and do more harm then good.

BTW, I have no problem buying any of the above listed cars or products as long it is made/produced in the USA.  At least they employee American workers.  I still agree with my father on that.  In the end, quality is the most important aspect of a product and I am willing to pay more for a quality made American product.

 :oops: :nixweiss:
« Last Edit: June 26, 2018, 09:47:41 AM by charles05663 »
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guppytrash

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Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
« Reply #41 on: June 26, 2018, 10:00:36 AM »

LMAO to those who wish to blame USA union labor for this.
You obviously know nothing about European Labor laws.

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Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
« Reply #42 on: June 26, 2018, 10:03:07 AM »

I remember Honda starting the motorcycle manufacturing in the US to avoid the high tariffs that H-D pushed for years ago since they claimed they couldn't compete with foreign bikes. It really shocked me to read that Honda took their Goldwing manufacturing back to Japan. I wonder if tariffs and shipping costs increase they will regret the move?
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Ironhorse

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Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
« Reply #43 on: June 26, 2018, 10:32:11 AM »

I remember Honda starting the motorcycle manufacturing in the US to avoid the high tariffs that H-D pushed for years ago since they claimed they couldn't compete with foreign bikes. It really shocked me to read that Honda took their Goldwing manufacturing back to Japan. I wonder if tariffs and shipping costs increase they will regret the move?

I remember that back in the 70s HD had tariffs placed on any imported motorcycle with a large engine as it "cut into their market". Then Kawasaki started building the KZ1000 in Lincoln, Nebraska and the police departments started using them. HD woke up, and started their buy back of the company from AMF and making the Evo Engine.

But this is all different. Now it's not just Harley vs Honda, and Vega vs Corolla, it's tariffs on metal and everything else. Add to that cheap overseas labor and it's only a matter of time till American Made is in name only.
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charles05663

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Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
« Reply #44 on: June 26, 2018, 11:49:56 AM »

LMAO to those who wish to blame USA union labor for this.
You obviously know nothing about European Labor laws.

I belonged to the IBEW at one time.  I simply don't agree with how they (unions) operate.  And I don't care how European Labor law works.  That is a European problem and not an American problem.

In the end, it is simply greed that drives management, "shareholders", and labor.  There is simply no loyalty between any of them and it is all about what they can get.  It has been sad to see the decline of the USA over the years as the focus has shifted to "its all about me" and what can I get attitude.

 :oops: :nixweiss:
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http://www.thefishermenministry.net/

Q:  What is the USA's number one export to China?
A:  Trash!  They loved our high quality trash. (not any longer).

      Stolen technology and Jobs!
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