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Author Topic: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??  (Read 3470 times)

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FlaHeatWave

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Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« on: October 13, 2018, 03:29:14 PM »

Seems that the MoCo is focusing on the Cam Chest (Oil Pump/Scavaging/Sealing)for a cure...

The root cause could be the management of increased/erratic crankcase pressures generated within the M8  :nixweiss:

Maybe the Engineers should be looking at ways to alleviate crankcase pressure, such as the breathers / breathing system, and (truely) positive crankcase ventilation??

What say you???
« Last Edit: October 13, 2018, 03:33:04 PM by FlaHeatWave »
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Leadfoot72

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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2018, 05:44:44 PM »

Possibly,  I have a 19 and believe that it sumped last Saturday when I was riding fairly hard got got extremely hot and lost power so I slowed down and stoped at the net town and let it cool for a little while
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RivRaptor

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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2018, 09:53:50 PM »

The general consensus seems to be on other sites / threads is every thing points to pressure / breather (PVC) related.  People are defending HD by saying that the EPA has tied their hands as to size & routing of breathers and such (can't vent anything to the outside air anymore).  My personal experience with motors over the years & with talking to other motor guys is that this theory is not too far off.  This seal might at least be a step in the right direction as to controlling where pressure can build up hereby controlling sumping (cause HD can't just vent everything to the outside air), time will tell.
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2018, 10:58:09 PM »

The general consensus seems to be on other sites / threads is every thing points to pressure / breather (PVC) related.  People are defending HD by saying that the EPA has tied their hands as to size & routing of breathers and such (can't vent anything to the outside air anymore).  My personal experience with motors over the years & with talking to other motor guys is that this theory is not too far off.  This seal might at least be a step in the right direction as to controlling where pressure can build up hereby controlling sumping (cause HD can't just vent everything to the outside air), time will tell.
Indian, BMW, Honda, Yamaha, etc. don't seem to have a problem.
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grc

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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2018, 09:15:53 AM »

The general consensus seems to be on other sites / threads is every thing points to pressure / breather (PVC) related.  People are defending HD by saying that the EPA has tied their hands as to size & routing of breathers and such (can't vent anything to the outside air anymore).  My personal experience with motors over the years & with talking to other motor guys is that this theory is not too far off.  This seal might at least be a step in the right direction as to controlling where pressure can build up hereby controlling sumping (cause HD can't just vent everything to the outside air), time will tell.

I think that consensus was about the trans fluid migrating to the primary, not the engine sumping issue. 

Jerry
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2018, 09:28:05 AM »


I'm guessing that new oil pump housing seal is an attempt to prevent the scavenge side of the pump from sucking air from the cam chest instead of oil from the sump.  The actual problem "appears" to be related to the oil pickup in the sump, and I've seen lots of discussions about that in the other forums.  Harley made some major changes in the case design versus that of the TC, which didn't have this problem unless the oil pump became worn or damaged.  I seriously doubt the seal on the pump is the root cause of the problem, but a redesign of the cases would be a more expensive proposition plus a very much more expensive approach if they are forced to apply a fix to the earlier M8's.  In other words, a band-aid fix.  If it works, fine.  For purists who want the root cause fixed, I'm guessing that will be put off by the MoCo until it becomes time to retool for other reasons. 

JMHO - Jerry
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Ironhorse

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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2018, 09:44:27 AM »

Indian, BMW, Honda, Yamaha, etc. don't seem to have a problem.

Exactly! Why is that?
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2018, 04:00:36 PM »

Indian, BMW, Honda, Yamaha, etc. don't seem to have a problem.
no they don't... and the nicest people you'll ever meet ride them  ::)
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kojak

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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2018, 04:46:39 PM »

Possibly,  I have a 19 and believe that it sumped last Saturday when I was riding fairly hard got got extremely hot and lost power so I slowed down and stoped at the net town and let it cool for a little while
Its amazing so many new members on this forum have m8 cvo's that are sumping. Majority have less than 10 posts. Not making light of the problem but jeez!
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2018, 05:40:53 PM »

Its amazing so many new members on this forum have m8 cvo's that are sumping. Majority have less than 10 posts. Not making light of the problem but jeez!
My guess is they did a Google search and this (along w/other) forums came up regarding this issue. :nixweiss:

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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2018, 05:48:03 PM »

I'm guessing that new oil pump housing seal is an attempt to prevent the scavenge side of the pump from sucking air from the cam chest instead of oil from the sump.  The actual problem "appears" to be related to the oil pickup in the sump, and I've seen lots of discussions about that in the other forums.  Harley made some major changes in the case design versus that of the TC, which didn't have this problem unless the oil pump became worn or damaged.  I seriously doubt the seal on the pump is the root cause of the problem, but a redesign of the cases would be a more expensive proposition plus a very much more expensive approach if they are forced to apply a fix to the earlier M8's.  In other words, a band-aid fix.  If it works, fine.  For purists who want the root cause fixed, I'm guessing that will be put off by the MoCo until it becomes time to retool for other reasons. 

JMHO - Jerry

Exactly right...   :2vrolijk_21:


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fastfreddy

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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2018, 06:03:56 PM »

Its amazing so many new members on this forum have m8 cvo's that are sumping. Majority have less than 10 posts. Not making light of the problem but jeez!
how many trouble free miles do you have now  :nixweiss:... following closely
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SDCVO

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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2018, 09:13:05 PM »

Its amazing so many new members on this forum have m8 cvo's that are sumping. Majority have less than 10 posts. Not making light of the problem but jeez!
not all "sumping members" are new..
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2018, 11:24:14 AM »

Exactly! Why is that?
Maybe because HD manufacturers use unit construction/1 fluid vs separate cavities?
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2018, 11:54:24 AM »

I know we will never get the truth but it would be nice to see figures of the true number of motors with this issue. Not just the total number of complaints but overall percentage. As with most vehicle owner websites the most vocal members with problems get the majority of coverage since most owners without issues generally don't post things like "Rode my bike today and nothing bad happened etc." Especially when you realize the majority of a specific vehicle are not members of the website too.
My dad taught me decades ago not to buy into advertising hype since "even Rolls-Royce has repair shops".  :huepfenlol2: so every brand has some issues to deal with over time.
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