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[charles05663]

You can still epa certify an air cooled engine, that said, it takes water cooling to achieve higher levels of performance along with reliability. Many of todays buyers complain about engine heat as well.

Hopefully Harley invest in a water cooled touring bike with competitive performance and features.....at a competitive price.

Sent from my SM-J327T using Tapatalk

I was really thinking that the European EPA are driving the emission standards.  As everyone looks to expand their markets it benefits the manufactures to have a single standard engine.

 

[scottt]

I was really thinking that the European EPA are driving the emission standards.  As everyone looks to expand their markets it benefits the manufactures to have a single standard engine.

 

The EU5 standards take effect Jan. 1 2020 for new model motorcycles. Jan 1 2021 for carry over models. Most Harleys will fall into the 2021 category.

The 5 standards are significantly more stringent than the 4.

Harley will be able to meet EU5 with current engines, the issue in my opinion will be Stage kits.

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[owl893]

So let me get this straight.

1. Harley - Bad, everybody else good, especially ricers and Euro's.
2. Harley Service - Bad, everybody else good.
3. Harley - Big polluter, everybody else environmentally friendly.
4. Harley sucks - but you bought two or three more just to prove it.
5. Harley outdated - but competition now releasing copies of "outdated" models.
6. Harley dealers - wealthy, corrupt, greedy "used car" mentality pricks, others are friendly country boys not interested in profits.

Some posters need to go and find a tree to hug, and a new brand to buy, this scab has been fully picked.

OWL

[BigLew]

OWL I hope this is not your opinion, if it is you might need some new medication 

BigLew

[mark]

So let me get this straight.

1. Harley - Bad, everybody else good, especially ricers and Euro's.
2. Harley Service - Bad, everybody else good.
3. Harley - Big polluter, everybody else environmentally friendly.
4. Harley sucks - but you bought two or three more just to prove it.
5. Harley outdated - but competition now releasing copies of "outdated" models.
6. Harley dealers - wealthy, corrupt, greedy "used car" mentality pricks, others are friendly country boys not interested in profits.

Some posters need to go and find a tree to hug, and a new brand to buy, this scab has been fully picked.

OWL

There are some legitimate concerns with your 1 thru 6 list.  Take # 6 for example, We've seen a trend of long-time, locally owned HD dealerships sold to car dealer conglomerates.  First thing they do is run off all the long-time employees by lowering wages, reducing benefits, changing working conditions, and bringing a "car sales mentality" to the shop.  They wind up hiring employees that don't know HDs or even motorcycles in general.  This has taken the personal relationship out of the shop - so hanging out at the dealer is now akin to lurking around a Buick dealership.     

[RivRaptor]

So let me get this straight.

1. Harley - Bad, everybody else good, especially ricers and Euro's.
2. Harley Service - Bad, everybody else good.
3. Harley - Big polluter, everybody else environmentally friendly.
4. Harley sucks - but you bought two or three more just to prove it.
5. Harley outdated - but competition now releasing copies of "outdated" models.
6. Harley dealers - wealthy, corrupt, greedy "used car" mentality pricks, others are friendly country boys not interested in profits.

Some posters need to go and find a tree to hug, and a new brand to buy, this scab has been fully picked.

OWL

Agreed

[scottt]

So let me get this straight.

1. Harley - Bad, everybody else good, especially ricers and Euro's.
2. Harley Service - Bad, everybody else good.
3. Harley - Big polluter, everybody else environmentally friendly.
4. Harley sucks - but you bought two or three more just to prove it.
5. Harley outdated - but competition now releasing copies of "outdated" models.
6. Harley dealers - wealthy, corrupt, greedy "used car" mentality pricks, others are friendly country boys not interested in profits.

Some posters need to go and find a tree to hug, and a new brand to buy, this scab has been fully picked.

OWL

It's obvious Owl you haven't been around Harley long. Not ment as a put down, otherwise you would understand where many are coming from.

We're not wishing for Harley's failure, we're hoping for a correction.

By the way, other brands are not copying Harley, generally they are building bikes with superior engineering. Harley's most valuable asset is it's loyal customer base, large dealer network and brand. We're just asking for competitive bikes to be added to the list along with returning to the most popular ways of the old time shops.

I realize this makes me a dinosaur. Harley has made it clear that there top priority is developing a new generation of riders starting with electric scooters and motorcycles.

Will always like Harleys and wish them the best. 


Sent from my SM-J327T using Tapatalk

[Phreakyz]

So let me get this straight.

1. Harley - Bad, everybody else good, especially ricers and Euro's.
2. Harley Service - Bad, everybody else good.
3. Harley - Big polluter, everybody else environmentally friendly.
4. Harley sucks - but you bought two or three more just to prove it.
5. Harley outdated - but competition now releasing copies of "outdated" models.
6. Harley dealers - wealthy, corrupt, greedy "used car" mentality pricks, others are friendly country boys not interested in profits.

Some posters need to go and find a tree to hug, and a new brand to buy, this scab has been fully picked.

OWL

I agree, sometimes this site makes me crazy.   It's the grass is always greener principle...   
Many will also say that Harley is not "innovative" and that they are "falling behind" and yet they have not owned or ridden a modern Harley.     
If they weren't amazing motorcycles then Indian wouldn't be spending so much money imitating them!   Look at the new Chieftain Fairing (Streetglide) Their new Chieftain saddlebags (Harley Rushmore Touring) and the new Spy Photos of Indians 2020 Fixed Fairing Bike (Roadglide)

[scottt]

There are some legitimate concerns with your 1 thru 6 list.  Take # 6 for example, We've seen a trend of long-time, locally owned HD dealerships sold to car dealer conglomerates.  First thing they do is run off all the long-time employees by lowering wages, reducing benefits, changing working conditions, and bringing a "car sales mentality" to the shop.  They wind up hiring employees that don't know HDs or even motorcycles in general.  This has taken the personal relationship out of the shop - so hanging out at the dealer is now akin to lurking around a Buick dealership.   

Bingo! A local dealer i know recently sold to a KIA car dealer. They now have balloons tied to bikes outside, streamers, no money down signs and a bunch of 20 something sales folks playing biker dress up. I stopped and chatted with them, it was all about payments. They have no clue. No thanks.

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[Ironhorse]

So let me get this straight.

1. Harley - Bad, everybody else good, especially ricers and Euro's.
2. Harley Service - Bad, everybody else good.
3. Harley - Big polluter, everybody else environmentally friendly.
4. Harley sucks - but you bought two or three more just to prove it.
5. Harley outdated - but competition now releasing copies of "outdated" models.
6. Harley dealers - wealthy, corrupt, greedy "used car" mentality pricks, others are friendly country boys not interested in profits.

Some posters need to go and find a tree to hug, and a new brand to buy, this scab has been fully picked.

OWL

That's one way to spin it.

I like HD, they just need to improve to keep up with the competition. Indian is getting ready to release a water cooled motor and a fixed fairing frame. I'm glad to see it, hopefully it will push HD to similar action. Shouldn't be too hard for their engineers to package the V-Rod engine into a touring frame.

[Ironhorse]

They now have balloons tied to bikes outside, streamers, no money down signs and a bunch of 20 something sales folks playing biker dress up.

Damn,....

I'm sure the service department is a bunch of 1st year MMA grads used to working on Japanese bikes earning minimum wage.

[scottt]

I agree, sometimes this site makes me crazy.   It's the grass is always greener principle...   
Many will also say that Harley is not "innovative" and that they are "falling behind" and yet they have not owned or ridden a modern Harley.     
If they weren't amazing motorcycles then Indian wouldn't be spending so much money imitating them!   Look at the new Chieftain Fairing (Streetglide) Their new Chieftain saddlebags (Harley Rushmore Touring) and the new Spy Photos of Indians 2020 Fixed Fairing Bike (Roadglide)

Your absolutely correct about Indian styling. That's where it ends, the new Indians have a far superior frame and suspension. The coming indian shark will have a powerful water cooled motor in addition to the superior frame.

Personally i would not buy one, it's Polaris to me. Harley is the real deal. Hopefully Harley builds a competitive bike.

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[iski]

It's obvious Owl you haven't been around Harley long. Not ment as a put down, otherwise you would understand where many are coming from.

We're not wishing for Harley's failure, we're hoping for a correction.

By the way, other brands are not copying Harley, generally they are building bikes with superior engineering. Harley's most valuable asset is it's loyal customer base, large dealer network and brand. We're just asking for competitive bikes to be added to the list along with returning to the most popular ways of the old time shops.

I realize this makes me a dinosaur. Harley has made it clear that there top priority is developing a new generation of riders starting with electric scooters and motorcycles.

Will always like Harleys and wish them the best. 


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Well said.  Part of it is nostalgia - remembering those 60s & 70s Harleys I saw as a young whippersnapper, when I could not afford to buy one even if I wanted to.   Everyone has different things that drive their buying decisions - buy new, buy used, buy for economy, for style, for comfort, for convenience - dozens of reasons & for each of us these reasons are weighted differently. We each see things through our own perceptions of those things.

When some of us see a brand we like (in this case HD) that appears to be letting the wheels fall off, we tend to bitch and moan.  Meanwhile, HD makes MCs regardless and they should be looking 5-10 years into the future and beyond to "guess" (yes that is my official term) what the market will be like then.  Not an easy task.  HD enjoyed a good run of more than a few years of selling everything it could make.  Now they are adjusting, sales are in decline, and competition is as hot as always if not more.  If HD misses that guess by a little or some they will continue to exist.  If they miss that guess by too much, at some point they will be a memory like Vincent or at some point re-imagined like Crocker.  If HD guesses right then they will continue on.  My hope is for the latter.

[mrmagloo]

Glad the dealership I use is not as you describe.  Yes, its a new mega store, opened in Sept 2004.  Not a Car company owner.

Owner is a business man who tried to open a store for 10 years before Harley let him open a store.  If you are a regular customer they know you by name, including the owner.  The salesmen know me, the sales manager knows me, motor clothes know me.  Parts dept knows me, Service director knows me and so on.  Since he opened that store, he has opened two more dealerships, 3 tee shirt shops and a used bike store.

Main store, has a bar and Smoke house on the property.  Also does concerts on Saturday nights.  Owner is a rider and damn good one at that, Sales Staff ride, mechanics ride, parts ride and some of motor clothes ride.

I would say Smokey Mountain Harley and its staff is a lot of why I still am on a Harley especially after my 15 that needed a new motor at 2 years old.

Dealer is very involved with riding.  They have a dealer lead ride every week.  They put on lots of riding events.

I've been to SMH in Maryville a couple of times which is where my buddies and I from across the country have met up to start our Dragon/Moonshiner/BRP rides.  That location was definitely an exception to what we are experiencing here in the Chicago area.

[fastfreddy]

So let me get this straight.

1. Harley - Bad, everybody else good, especially ricers and Euro's.
2. Harley Service - Bad, everybody else good.
3. Harley - Big polluter, everybody else environmentally friendly.
4. Harley sucks - but you bought two or three more just to prove it.
5. Harley outdated - but competition now releasing copies of "outdated" models.
6. Harley dealers - wealthy, corrupt, greedy "used car" mentality pricks, others are friendly country boys not interested in profits.

Some posters need to go and find a tree to hug, and a new brand to buy, this scab has been fully picked.

OWL

was just over at the BMW forum and let them know what an amazing bike they all have.. and to get their kids back in their yard