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Author Topic: Harley union...  (Read 1694 times)

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iski

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Re: Harley union...
« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2019, 12:04:36 PM »


Yeap.  It was 2:00 PM on a Tuesday.  Little windy that day.  Overall membership been going down ever since.

Corruption and the organized crime components had not peaked yet, that was a little later in the 1950s.  On a Friday about 4:30 until a Monday morning about 9, multiple pairs of cement boots were given out & Jimmy Hoffa didn't get his until 1975, so it was a lingering peak.
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scottt

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Re: Harley union...
« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2019, 12:47:34 PM »

Considering the fact that the workers got screwed on the last contract even though Harley was still making decent profits at the time, I would guess they will really get screwed this time.  Such is the current state of labor in this country.  When times are good, management and stockholders get most of the rewards.  When times are tough, upper management still manages to get rewarded and the workforce takes it in the ear.  The lesson to be learned is to make sure you're a member of upper management, not labor and lower management. 

Jerry
What i find interesting is that BMW is able to pay the highest wages in the world to build there premium ( or large ) models right in Germany using mostly parts from there own country or Europe.

If they can do this and remain profitable why can't Harley do the same? In my opinion Harley's issues are not related to labor cost, nor do they need to source so many of there parts and motorclothes line out to China or other 3rd world countries.

Harley buyers are not looking for cheap. They want quality and products that stand for something. They want management that stands for Harley's tradition's and American workers.

Just my opinion

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Re: Harley union...
« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2019, 02:32:19 PM »

Corruption and the organized crime components had not peaked yet, that was a little later in the 1950s.  On a Friday about 4:30 until a Monday morning about 9, multiple pairs of cement boots were given out & Jimmy Hoffa didn't get his until 1975, so it was a lingering peak.

Also Bobby Kennedy enjoyed his time in the Union sun  Then, later, not on a Friday (or a Tuesday) there was Sirhan Sirhan.  He (Kennedy) did not enjoy that; though Hoffa might have been tickled.  Because Hoffa, unlike Kennedy (either one), wasn't dead (yet).  Also, Sirhan was a bad shot.  Eight rounds and hit his target three times.  Though five others in the crowd were injured also.  So maybe not such a bad shot after all.  Bet the rest were all glad he was only using a .22.

Just had an entirely new (to me) thought.  Sirhan Sirhan has been in prison now for 50 years.  Originally given the death penalty in 1969 then in (I think this is right) 1972 commuted to life in prison.  50 years is a long time.  Even if you're locked up in San Diego that's a long long time.
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scottt

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Re: Harley union...
« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2019, 04:23:33 PM »

Right now, labor market is doing very well, better than it has in 14 years or more.  The amount of Manufacturing is going way up also, many plants are expanding and hiring.  Wages are going up in Manufacturing also.  I know every car parts manufacturer and both VW and Nissan are hiring in my area.

That said, Harley is doing the opposite as the rest of manufacturing.  Harley sales are way down.  Production is way down.  They will be lucky to keep their jobs.  The blame is not only Harley Managements, but also the board of directors, and investors.  They did not plan for the rapid decline in sales due to Boomers dying and also deciding the cost of the product has gone up way to high.

HD needs less employees, and less production space, and reduced output.
While much of what you say is correct, most of Harley's issues can be traced back to management.

You gotta build what the market wants to buy. Harley has depended on Nostalgia to keep sales rolling, depended on buyers that only bought HD regardless, figuring there customers were willing to spend big bucks trying to fix shortfalls.

If you look past Harley in the motorcycle industry you will find bright spots. Honda is doing well with the new Goldwing. BMW has grown sales for 8 years straight. They are shooting for 200,000 sales by 2020. They are focused on new product, not simply upgrading one component at a time. Developing complete new bikes.

Harleys touring line is out of date, no longer competitive. More and more buyers today want performance, handling, comfort right off the showroom floor. A $45,000 CVO Glide should perform, Handle and deliver everything and more than a $27,000 Goldwing, BMW or other brand does and do it with style.

This is not the fault of the workers, it's management!

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FLSTFI Dave

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Re: Harley union...
« Reply #34 on: April 06, 2019, 08:54:59 PM »

While much of what you say is correct, most of Harley's issues can be traced back to management.

You gotta build what the market wants to buy. Harley has depended on Nostalgia to keep sales rolling, depended on buyers that only bought HD regardless, figuring there customers were willing to spend big bucks trying to fix shortfalls.

If you look past Harley in the motorcycle industry you will find bright spots. Honda is doing well with the new Goldwing. BMW has grown sales for 8 years straight. They are shooting for 200,000 sales by 2020. They are focused on new product, not simply upgrading one component at a time. Developing complete new bikes.

Harleys touring line is out of date, no longer competitive. More and more buyers today want performance, handling, comfort right off the showroom floor. A $45,000 CVO Glide should perform, Handle and deliver everything and more than a $27,000 Goldwing, BMW or other brand does and do it with style.

This is not the fault of the workers, it's management!

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Actually its the fault of Management and the worker.  More management than the worker, but the worker is in part responsible for the crappy quality.  When the worker installs a visibly defective part, or fails to tighten nuts, bolt or screws.  Or when they fail to see that the power locks do not lock the bags.  All those details fall on the worker, both on the line and in quality control.

Now for the product it is management not changing with the times and delivering what people want.  It is management cutting corners on what goes on the bike, and choosing the cheaper suppliers. 

It is also management for not figuring out what 20 and 30 something want.

However again Both Honda and BMW sales growth are in smaller bikes.  Overall Americans are spending less on motorcycles, and are buying less of them.  Also They are becoming farther and farther out of reach of people in their late 20's or early 30's.   That is who Harley needs to attract. 

Harley should have come out with something like the Pan America 6 to 8 years ago before BMW conquered that market.
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RivRaptor

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Re: Harley union...
« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2019, 10:38:40 PM »

   I'm no fan of Unions mainly because I've seen so many abuses but my concern is who does management think is gonna buy 30K, 40K, 50K & 60K bikes!  There is only 2 wheels & 2 cylinders!.

   I almost fell for a Mako paint job cause I was about to put some money in my 17 CVO SG so I figured what the hell maybe it would make sense, my bike is low miles & perfect shape (should get good trade in) just have some maintenance & registration due soon, warranty is up and want a little more power. So 2 years newer and 5.5K more on sticker plus fees.  It's 10K difference because my last bike was OTD 38K this one is 48K OTD.

  Now let's look at what I don't get: no wet head and radiators (I like), no lowers, no chrome everywhere including the controls, rotors & wheels   What  I do get: powder coat everywhere (which I don't necessarily mind but forks are gonna chip) its a hell of lot cheaper to produce too, 1/4 inch bigger pistons & oil cooler without a fan, a big wheel, a new warranty and a fairing that needs a new wind screen to hear the stereo. I see a bike that is cheaper to produce but costs more!  Well after I got their offer on my trade in that was the last nail in the coffin.  Maybe they will deal more after MoCo announces the new bikes later this summer but by than I will have done all the work and since I like my bike to begin with I won't be interested.  I guess as others have said on this site that the gotta have factor was not there.  But if the price was there I would have been a buyer I wanted to try a RG & I liked the paint, but paint ain't worth that much money.  Sorry if I ranted.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2019, 10:41:59 PM by RivRaptor »
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iski

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Re: Harley union...
« Reply #36 on: April 07, 2019, 01:14:38 AM »

Also Bobby Kennedy enjoyed his time in the Union sun  Then, later, not on a Friday (or a Tuesday) there was Sirhan Sirhan.  He (Kennedy) did not enjoy that; though Hoffa might have been tickled.  Because Hoffa, unlike Kennedy (either one), wasn't dead (yet).  Also, Sirhan was a bad shot.  Eight rounds and hit his target three times.  Though five others in the crowd were injured also.  So maybe not such a bad shot after all.  Bet the rest were all glad he was only using a .22.

Just had an entirely new (to me) thought.  Sirhan Sirhan has been in prison now for 50 years.  Originally given the death penalty in 1969 then in (I think this is right) 1972 commuted to life in prison.  50 years is a long time.  Even if you're locked up in San Diego that's a long long time.

Another era the 1960s, when an AG would go after corruption in a group that tended to vote for that AGs political party.  RFK had the audacity (and/or integrity) to do just that to bust union corruption.  When Big Labor (Teamsters, etc.) buys influence in their political party, they expect it to stay bought. RFK stepped on some toes & those toes were pissed off.  RFK was swimming upstream, not like his brother Ted though. Have wondered what would have happened had RFK not been shot. Will never know. 50 years in jail is a long time, even for a Manchurian candidate.

As far as what drives HD union negotiations, from a Wall Street standpoint:
Harley-Davidson (NYSE:HOG) last announced its earnings results on Tuesday, January 29th. The company reported $0.17 earnings per share (EPS) for the quarter, missing consensus estimates of $0.33 by ($0.16). William Blair reissued a “market perform” rating on shares of Harley-Davidson in a research report on Tuesday, January 29th. ValuEngine downgraded Harley-Davidson from a “hold” rating to a “sell” rating in a research report on Wednesday, January 2nd. Finally, Robert W. Baird lowered their price target on Harley-Davidson from $50.00 to $45.00 and set a “neutral” rating on the stock in a research note on Thursday, December 13th. Three analysts have rated the stock with a sell rating, eight have assigned a hold rating and five have given a buy rating to the stock. Harley-Davidson has an average rating of “Hold” and a consensus target price of $43.38.

Current stock price is $40.31.

In other words, in investment banker professional speak descriptive terminology:  Harley sucks as an investment, because their sales & earnings suck.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2019, 01:18:57 AM by iski »
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scottt

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Re: Harley union...
« Reply #37 on: April 07, 2019, 12:46:33 PM »

   I'm no fan of Unions mainly because I've seen so many abuses but my concern is who does management think is gonna buy 30K, 40K, 50K & 60K bikes!  There is only 2 wheels & 2 cylinders!.

   I almost fell for a Mako paint job cause I was about to put some money in my 17 CVO SG so I figured what the hell maybe it would make sense, my bike is low miles & perfect shape (should get good trade in) just have some maintenance & registration due soon, warranty is up and want a little more power. So 2 years newer and 5.5K more on sticker plus fees.  It's 10K difference because my last bike was OTD 38K this one is 48K OTD.

  Now let's look at what I don't get: no wet head and radiators (I like), no lowers, no chrome everywhere including the controls, rotors & wheels   What  I do get: powder coat everywhere (which I don't necessarily mind but forks are gonna chip) its a hell of lot cheaper to produce too, 1/4 inch bigger pistons & oil cooler without a fan, a big wheel, a new warranty and a fairing that needs a new wind screen to hear the stereo. I see a bike that is cheaper to produce but costs more!  Well after I got their offer on my trade in that was the last nail in the coffin.  Maybe they will deal more after MoCo announces the new bikes later this summer but by than I will have done all the work and since I like my bike to begin with I won't be interested.  I guess as others have said on this site that the gotta have factor was not there.  But if the price was there I would have been a buyer I wanted to try a RG & I liked the paint, but paint ain't worth that much money.  Sorry if I ranted.
Agree with everything you said. The only thing i think you missed is how Harley has become less and less competitive in the touring sector. Harleys top selling line of bikes. The top two reasons to buy a Harley touring ride are style and brand loyalty. Followed by sound and feel of the bikes.

They do not compete in performance, handling, value, features nor comfort. Harley must compete on all levels. They cannot depend on being the bike 1% clubs ride (image) as i believe they have done. Harley owes much of there sucess to the clubs that ride there bikes, that's not enough moving forward. Especially considering the abundance of bargain priced used bikes that check the box for style, brand loyalty, sound and feel, doing so at less than half the price of new.

Your only going to create high demand by offering a far superior motorcycle to previous offerings, competitive  with other makes. Todays touring line is not that bike. America can do better.

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