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Author Topic: Muffler performance  (Read 917 times)

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Fier23

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Muffler performance
« on: July 09, 2019, 05:06:34 PM »

Question, will I get the same “performance” from debaffling my mufflers as to buying a set of Rinehart slipons? It’s more a back pressure question. I’m going to tune it with my FP3. If I don’t need to buy a set I won’t. I live my debaffled oem and live the look, just don’t want to hurt airflow or performance.


Jeremy 2019 Street Glide CVO Black Forest
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Scott7d

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Re: Muffler performance
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2019, 05:24:19 PM »

The aftermarket exhaust has intentions behind the design. Debaffling is a modification that is not by design and does slow down exhaust velocity and loss of torque (often referred to as back pressure). Even some aftermarket exhausts have that effect, such as the big ol' 4"+ models.

Other than sounding like the bike is broken, I've never ridden a debaffled bike that blew me away as far as performance. However; some people like that broken sound and performance isn't a huge priority. My personal opinion, I'd buy an aftermarket set known for being loud, if that's what you're looking for, and have it tuned. Good luck regardless what route you take!
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Fier23

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Re: Muffler performance
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2019, 05:37:09 PM »

The aftermarket exhaust has intentions behind the design. Debaffling is a modification that is not by design and does slow down exhaust velocity and loss of torque (often referred to as back pressure). Even some aftermarket exhausts have that effect, such as the big ol' 4"+ models.

Other than sounding like the bike is broken, I've never ridden a debaffled bike that blew me away as far as performance. However; some people like that broken sound and performance isn't a huge priority. My personal opinion, I'd buy an aftermarket set known for being loud, if that's what you're looking for, and have it tuned. Good luck regardless what route you take!
I am looking for loud which my stock debaffled gives me and I love it. What I hate is the loss of torque. Will my FP3 give me back that power or will the aftermarket set be the better option. Sorry to sound like a broken record!


Jeremy 2019 Street Glide CVO Black Forest
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rayson56

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Re: Muffler performance
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2019, 06:27:12 PM »

If you are leaving your cat in the head pipe but want a better sound and better performance I would recommend Fullsac 2.25 baffles as a replacement for your factory baffles without his Tech Mat and screens. Then you have the above plus retain the look of the stock CVO pipes at a great value. Now if you want it a little louder and would still like the factory look, TAB makes mufflers that will adapt your heat shields and tips to keep the look and offer a few different interchangeable baffles. Sounds like their Zombie baffles would be right up your alley.

Here's a video that may help;



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Scott7d

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Re: Muffler performance
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2019, 06:33:30 PM »

I am looking for loud which my stock debaffled gives me and I love it. What I hate is the loss of torque. Will my FP3 give me back that power or will the aftermarket set be the better option. Sorry to sound like a broken record!


Jeremy 2019 Street Glide CVO Black Forest

Once you do something as drastic as baffle removal, there may be some things you can do to make it run optimally for THAT setup. But I highly doubt there is anything that can be done to, for lack of a better phrase......defy physics and get that low end torque back. At that point it's just a sacrifice for the sound. I would again opt for an aftermarket set. Sorry, wording isn't my strong point :)
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fastfreddy

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Re: Muffler performance
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2019, 06:59:29 PM »

 I must be getting old... I would rather turn up the tunes and tear ass down the road than... well  :nixweiss:  never mind. that said, if you want noise and performance look into a 2 to 1 pipe and dump the fp3 for a real tuner
« Last Edit: July 09, 2019, 07:05:19 PM by fastfreddy »
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havenolife

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Re: Muffler performance
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2019, 01:43:55 AM »

Question, will I get the same “performance” from debaffling my mufflers as to buying a set of Rinehart slipons? It’s more a back pressure question. I’m going to tune it with my FP3. If I don’t need to buy a set I won’t. I live my debaffled oem and live the look, just don’t want to hurt airflow or performance.


Jeremy 2019 Street Glide CVO Black Forest
Don't forget using that FP3 or any tuner NO MORE WARRANTY.
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CVODON

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Re: Muffler performance
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2019, 06:05:44 PM »

I have Fullsac 1.75 baffles, still have the cat and use a FP3. I think folks with no respect for electronic tuning just have not used one. Literally thousands of bikes/cars/diesel pick-ups and boats are being electronic tuned and they work Fantastic.
I notice most folks on this site badmouth the FP3 and similiar tuners, not sure why unless they owned one and had a problem. But to each his own. Mine works great and would suggest anyone try it if you are only making minor changes such as pipes or breathers or just want to speed up the operation of the throttle, which I really like. IMHO opinion, electronic tuning, either bluetooth or cable is the wave of the future.
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Fier23

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Re: Muffler performance
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2019, 06:20:03 PM »

I have Fullsac 1.75 baffles, still have the cat and use a FP3. I think folks with no respect for electronic tuning just have not used one. Literally thousands of bikes/cars/diesel pick-ups and boats are being electronic tuned and they work Fantastic.
I notice most folks on this site badmouth the FP3 and similiar tuners, not sure why unless they owned one and had a problem. But to each his own. Mine works great and would suggest anyone try it if you are only making minor changes such as pipes or breathers or just want to speed up the operation of the throttle, which I really like. IMHO opinion, electronic tuning, either bluetooth or cable is the wave of the future.

I agree! That’s why I chose the FP3. I can’t wait to put it on. I’m going to go catless and get a set of mufflers from eBay just cause I would love it to be a little louder. My stock mufflers are debaffled so essentially they’re just hollowed cans. Sound great thought but lost low end torque.


Jeremy 2019 Street Glide CVO Black Forest
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fastfreddy

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Re: Muffler performance
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2019, 06:28:42 PM »

 when it comes to tuners you don't know what you don't know.... tapping out now
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hd-dude

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Re: Muffler performance
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2019, 10:30:25 AM »

when it comes to tuners you don't know what you don't know.... tapping out now

 :2vrolijk_21: Or in other words...."The best you know is the best you've had!"

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Re: Muffler performance
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2019, 02:16:32 AM »

I am looking for loud which my stock debaffled gives me and I love it. What I hate is the loss of torque. Will my FP3 give me back that power or will the aftermarket set be the better option. Sorry to sound like a broken record!
The newer FP3 (last 6 to 8 years) is a "flash" tuner, in contrast to the older FP3, which was a "piggyback" tuner.  Flash means it puts a new fuel map into the ECM; piggyback means it just makes add-on changes to the original fuel map.  All of the modern tuners, such as TTS, PowerVision, FP3, and Direct Link are flash.  In general, they can change more/most of the engine parameters.  The older tuners, like PowerCommander III and V, or old FP3, are piggyback, and less capable.

Be aware: the use of most flash tuners voids your factory warranty or ESP.  This is much debated on here.

Your exhaust system choice is on a scale running from Circuit-track [extremely loud, with best high-RPM HP, but loss of low-end torque (TQ)], to Stoplight-to-stoplight [not so loud, but best low-end TQ, good acceleration and drivability, some loss of high-RPM HP].  It's the baffles, cats, and smaller diameter that quiet the system and keep the TQ.

Lots of people go through a long trial and error period to find the best balance of loudness and performance...and there's no tuner (person or equipment) that can overcome the laws of physics.

It's essentially impossible to get the loudest sound yet keep the low-end TQ.  The closest you can get is what fastfreddy said about a 2 into 1 exhaust setup.  I don't have any recent experience with them, but people on here seem to have the best results with a Drago or D&D 2-1 system.

As far as the best tuner equipment:  get the best tuner person within the area you're willing to travel...then use the tune box they prefer.  It's way more about the person.  You can get recommendations by searching or by asking on here.  Good luck.
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Re: Muffler performance
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2019, 08:37:53 AM »


What he said ^^^.  The tuning interface is just a tool, like a wrench.  The tool is only as good as the person wielding it, and your first priority should be to find the best person to do the tuning.  If you're just looking for a tuning system you can use to load canned maps, and have no plans to actually have the bike professionally tuned, then you can go in many different directions.  If you are well versed in using flash tuning software, go for the system that gives you the most control over all the important parameters.  If you aren't well versed in tuning basics, go with the system that is the most user friendly.  There is no simple answer that applies to everyone and every situation.

For novices reading these threads, make sure you fully understand the implications of using any tuning system on late model bikes while under warranty.  For 2017 and later models, Harley will instantly void your powertrain warranty if they detect you have installed an illegal tune.  And don't necessarily believe everything you hear about ways to keep them from finding out.

Jerry
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Re: Muffler performance
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2019, 08:57:06 AM »

What he said ^^^.  The tuning interface is just a tool, like a wrench.  The tool is only as good as the person wielding it, and your first priority should be to find the best person to do the tuning.  If you're just looking for a tuning system you can use to load canned maps, and have no plans to actually have the bike professionally tuned, then you can go in many different directions.  If you are well versed in using flash tuning software, go for the system that gives you the most control over all the important parameters.  If you aren't well versed in tuning basics, go with the system that is the most user friendly.  There is no simple answer that applies to everyone and every situation.

For novices reading these threads, make sure you fully understand the implications of using any tuning system on late model bikes while under warranty.  For 2017 and later models, Harley will instantly void your powertrain warranty if they detect you have installed an illegal tune.  And don't necessarily believe everything you hear about ways to keep them from finding out.

Jerry

As usual, Great Advice!

One thing though...   I think we should consider saying "Harley is required by the EPA to void your warranty" rather than "Harley will void your warranty"   It's not really their choice.   If they are caught violating the EPA's mandate then they get screwed even worse than they did the first time.   
I am guilty of it too.   I am going to try not to say it anymore.
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Scott7d

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Re: Muffler performance
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2019, 12:52:00 AM »

I have Fullsac 1.75 baffles, still have the cat and use a FP3. I think folks with no respect for electronic tuning just have not used one. Literally thousands of bikes/cars/diesel pick-ups and boats are being electronic tuned and they work Fantastic.
I notice most folks on this site badmouth the FP3 and similiar tuners, not sure why unless they owned one and had a problem. But to each his own. Mine works great and would suggest anyone try it if you are only making minor changes such as pipes or breathers or just want to speed up the operation of the throttle, which I really like. IMHO opinion, electronic tuning, either bluetooth or cable is the wave of the future.

I respectfully disagree. I don't have a chip on my shoulder when it comes to these tuners, it's definitely better than doing nothing after installing performance modifications. My view is this: These bikes and their parts are expensive. It seems silly to all of a sudden close the wallet when it comes time to make the bike run correctly. Why not try to get full yield out of these expensive performance parts? There are countless before and after results comparing a tunes by highly skilled operators in contrast to FP3's and every other "insert autotuned name here", and the results......even at stage 1 like you mentioned, can be very substantial. I'd bet my 401K that dyno machines are in fact not obsolete in 50 years. Just because something runs good, doesn't mean it can't run even better.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2019, 12:54:19 AM by Scott7d »
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