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[scottt]

Harleys customer base is aging.  Many are giving up riding.
Harley is plagued with quality issues, and loyal customers know this so are not buying HD, or Keeping the old one and not buying.
Used market is soft, 4 year old CVO is worth about half the cost new, so many are not trading.
Better options out there for less money
Younger generation does not have the interest in motorcycling
Cost is going way up on Harley to get less bike

So with all the above dealers are more desperate to get sales.
They take bigger risks to sell a bike.

In addition to all the above; Harley directed there dealers to build big, fancy facilities in prime locations. Nothing brings a business down faster than high overhead in a declining market.

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[Ironhorse]

In addition to all the above; Harley directed there dealers to build big, fancy facilities in prime locations. Nothing brings a business down faster than high overhead in a declining market.

The reason for that big fancy facility is that HD dealerships have become both a motorcycle dealer and a fashion boutique. And the reason they do that is because they know that while most folks cannot purchase a $30K bike, they can purchase a $50 T-Shirt. Their whole plan is to sell the brand and the "lifestyle" along with the motorcycle. In any other dealership excluding Indian, BMW and maybe Ducati, you won't find jeans, shirts, chaps, vests, jackets, helmets and gloves all branded with the company logo. And even those that do sell them don't have the variety, sizes, and gender choices that HD has.

And now, when folks are lacking the requisite disposable income needed to support the "HD Lifestyle", these dealerships are burdened with the overhead. Some close, consolidate, or do unscrupulous business act.

This is nothing new, or nothing we didn't see coming.

[scottt]

The reason for that big fancy facility is that HD dealerships have become both a motorcycle dealer and a fashion boutique. And the reason they do that is because they know that while most folks cannot purchase a $30K bike, they can purchase a $50 T-Shirt. Their whole plan is to sell the brand and the "lifestyle" along with the motorcycle. In any other dealership excluding Indian, BMW and maybe Ducati, you won't find jeans, shirts, chaps, vests, jackets, helmets and gloves all branded with the company logo. And even those that do sell them don't have the variety, sizes, and gender choices that HD has.

And now, when folks are lacking the requisite disposable income needed to support the "HD Lifestyle", these dealerships are burdened with the overhead. Some close, consolidate, or do unscrupulous business act.

This is nothing new, or nothing we didn't see coming.

While this is totally accurate; I'd like to add that while Harleys motorclothes are of high quality many Harley riders including myself choose not to buy the clothing due to high prices and the fact that all I've seen are made in China, Vietnam, other 3rd world countries. Harley should stand for "made in America " yet there riding gear is not. Harley could sell more motorclothes in my opinion if the vast majority was "made in America ". This should be the driving force of the brand. Quality, Made in America!

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[OBB]

While this is totally accurate; I'd like to add that while Harleys motorclothes are of high quality many Harley riders including myself choose not to buy the clothing due to high prices and the fact that all I've seen are made in China, Vietnam, other 3rd world countries. Harley should stand for "made in America " yet there riding gear is not. Harley could sell more motorclothes in my opinion if the vast majority was "made in America ". This should be the driving force of the brand. Quality, Made in America!

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Made in America clothes. Double the price and they won't sell any of them. Do you really think a business will eat the cost of higher manufacturing and cut into their profits? I'll have what you're drinking.

Sent from my boring Droid phone.

[Ironhorse]

While this is totally accurate; I'd like to add that while Harleys motorclothes are of high quality many Harley riders including myself choose not to buy the clothing due to high prices and the fact that all I've seen are made in China, Vietnam, other 3rd world countries. Harley should stand for "made in America " yet there riding gear is not. Harley could sell more motorclothes in my opinion if the vast majority was "made in America ". This should be the driving force of the brand. Quality, Made in America!

No argument there except to ask, are you ready to pay $90 for a t-shirt, and $135 for a button down tailored shirt? I'm not. If I'm going to pay over $2000 for leathers, it will be tailored made by Bates (which I have) or Langlitz, not HD.

[scottt]

Made in America clothes. Double the price and they won't sell any of them. Do you really think a business will eat the cost of higher manufacturing and cut into their profits? I'll have what you're drinking.

Sent from my boring Droid phone.

Gotta believe you can make a shirt priced at $75 in this country. As you said, it would have lower margins. They sell the blue jeans for $250, Diamond Gusset sells motorcycle jeans for around the same price, made in America.

Goes back to the high overhead facilities. Would riders prefer the fancy stores or American made products?

I look at BMW Motorrad, they pay there factory workers more than Harley pays for labor while selling bikes without China content, at least that I've seen, higher feature content and competitive prices. Vast majority of the clothing line made in Germany or elsewhere  in Europe.

Guess what I'm saying is that Harley could become more of a American product. If i wanted a shirt made in China I'd go to Costco and buy for $15 not $75. Granted the HD shirt has the HD logo.

I could just be old fashioned, living in the past. I believe Americans will pay more for high quality and American made. Look at SnapOn tools, Tesla as two examples.

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[ultrarider123]

No argument there except to ask, are you ready to pay $90 for a t-shirt, and $135 for a button down tailored shirt? I'm not. If I'm going to pay over $2000 for leathers, it will be tailored made by Bates (which I have) or Langlitz, not HD.

While the T-shirts may not be $90, most of their made in China button up "dress" type shirts are already $90 to $125 bucks...I know cause I've got about 12 different ones hanging in the closet.  Logo'ed T-shirts are still $40 to $60 plus so yes, if I had the option of buying American made products and pay a bit more, sign me up.  The China T-shirts that Vickie has purchased over the years have held up through maybe 3 washings and started growing holes in the fabric...all of them...and they, being "fancy" women's shirts were in that $50 to $70 buck range...

By the way, there is a dealer in KY that tried the experiment on having US made T-shirts and the current overseas offerings and guess what?  They couldn't keep the US stuff in stock and it was only $5 or so more on each item.  I'm not sure if they are still doing this but it worked for a while.

I know this discussion has morphed into something different than the original discussion on a dealer that didn't pay it's bills to the MoCo but part of the issues IS the buy 'merican product is pretty much just that in name only.  Produce a product that is actually made entirely in the U.S., limit production on the entire motorcycle line-up, keep the prices as is for a bit on bikes, parts and clothing and that store along with others with one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel will start to turn around.  Buy American should mean something.  Buy American quality should mean something. 

[mark]

Unfortunately, if a company produced "All American" products, the high cost would drive buyers to other brands produced offshore.  If you balk at paying $75 for a HD shirt made in Vietnam, you'll really balk at that same shirt made in the US with a $100+ price tag.  Publicly held companies exist to make money for the stockholders.  It would be a very interesting stockholders meeting if the CEO stood up and said stock prices didn't perform as expected because we decided to sell only US made clothing, and in order to keep the price point, we had to cut our clothing profits by 25%.

Plus, institutional investors, like pension funds and mutual funds, are going to find other places for their money, which would drive the stock down further. 

[scottt]

Unfortunately, if a company produced "All American" products, the high cost would drive buyers to other brands produced offshore.  If you balk at paying $75 for a HD shirt made in Vietnam, you'll really balk at that same shirt made in the US with a $100+ price tag.  Publicly held companies exist to make money for the stockholders.  It would be a very interesting stockholders meeting if the CEO stood up and said stock prices didn't perform as expected because we decided to sell only US made clothing, and in order to keep the price point, we had to cut our clothing profits by 25%.

Plus, institutional investors, like pension funds and mutual funds, are going to find other places for their money, which would drive the stock down further.

Your probably right; sad statement about US public traded companies. They tend to be short sighted.

Companies in Japan and Europe tend to prioritise differently. They don't place profit margins above all else.

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[grc]

Fortunately for Harley there are still a lot of people who will (and have been) paying way more than reasonable prices for things, so I don't buy the idea they couldn't sell clothes and accessories made in the USA if they wanted to do so.  The real reason they abandoned American products in favor of Chinese products is pure greed.  Note they didn't reduce any prices when they switched to third world suppliers, they increased prices.  I remember years ago buying chrome pieces that were still made in the USA, and the parts were heavy weight with excellent plating.  A few years later parts I bought were now from China, made of a lighter gauge metal and the plating was poor, but the price had gone up.  The executives and stock holders were happy, so who cared that the customers were being screwed.

Jerry

[Ironhorse]

The real reason they abandoned American products in favor of Chinese products is pure greed.

Spot on. It's become HD/Walmart, a "Superstore" that sells Chinese made "stuff" to maximize profits. It's the American Way. Yes there are a few dealerships who actually cater to customers, but most have become motorcycle selling Walmart. Yes they have "Bike Night", with hot dogs, but it's all to get you into the store to by those Chinese t-shirts.

But I could be wrong.

[scottt]

Spot on. It's become HD/Walmart, a "Superstore" that sells Chinese made "stuff" to maximize profits. It's the American Way. Yes there are a few dealerships who actually cater to customers, but most have become motorcycle selling Walmart. Yes they have "Bike Night", with hot dogs, but it's all to get you into the store to by those Chinese t-shirts.

But I could be wrong.

Sadly, i agree. When Harley outsourced there engine crankshaft production to China, that said it all. The quality of those cranks have never been as good. Guess it's cheaper to repace the occasional bad crank than make first quality units day one. Especially considering the fact that most Harley owners put so few miles on there bikes.



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[Landshark]

For those who remember, The Motor Co first started selling products from China under the Eagle Iron banner. It was just a matter of time before they drop the Eagle Iron name and just started selling regular H-D parts that made in China. Sad but true. It like so many things, very little is still made here and we are paying the price now. Hopefully this will change but I don’t see it happening soon if at all.

[Eqcons]

While this is totally accurate; I'd like to add that while Harleys motorclothes are of high quality many Harley riders including myself choose not to buy the clothing due to high prices and the fact that all I've seen are made in China, Vietnam, other 3rd world countries. Harley should stand for "made in America " yet there riding gear is not. Harley could sell more motorclothes in my opinion if the vast majority was "made in America ". This should be the driving force of the brand. Quality, Made in America!

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Well, the t-shirts are often of dubious quality, and the necks often stretch hugely.  Particularly those made in Honduras.   But HD could sell more motorclothes if they didn't mark them up to stupid profit levels.  For example, I wanted these boots (made in China by the way) https://www.amazon.com/Harley-Davidson-Mens-Tyson-Logger-Black/dp/B003FGWYC8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1443696983&sr=8-1&keywords=harley+tyson+boots when I bought them, HD's price for my size was $180 + shipping.  Now compare those with these:  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006H1XBBQ?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=ox_sc_act_title_1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER  I paid $71.00 with free shipping for those, and yes, it's EXACTLY the same boot without the Harley badges.  If you think what HD must pay Bates for them, their markup must be in excess of 200%.  That's some profit margin! 

[flhman]

A little more info on the New Berlin and Janesville dealerships, allegedly people were paying for the esp, and the dealers pocketed the money, no esp for these people. I would be really pissed at these yahoos.