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Author Topic: Knocking from primary at hot idle  (Read 2055 times)

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1roadking

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Knocking from primary at hot idle
« on: August 24, 2019, 09:34:42 AM »

Hey guys looking for some input on a problem with my bike. It is knocking on the primary at hot idle. I had the primary pulled apart, new comp was put in everything checks out but still knocking. The guy that looked at it thinks it’s my idle speed set way to low because it goes away at just of idle and doesn’t do it till it’s hot and idle speed is at it’s lowest. I’m running a 117 at 10.7 to 1 compression with a Tman 259 cam. Has anyone else had a similar issue? The idle runs right around 900 hot but only gets that low when it’s fully heated up. It doesn’t make a peep at cool idle.
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T-Roy

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Re: Knocking from primary at hot idle
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2019, 10:52:11 AM »

Does the noise go away if you pull the clutch handle in? Could maybe narrow it down to primary or clutch /tranny issue?
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1roadking

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Re: Knocking from primary at hot idle
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2019, 11:36:31 AM »

Maybe a little but not much. 
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r0de_runr

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Re: Knocking from primary at hot idle
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2019, 06:18:29 PM »

I have this same problem.  I think it is neutral rattle, (normal) so will try changing to 85W140 BelRey lube.
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fastfreddy

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Re: Knocking from primary at hot idle
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2019, 07:12:37 PM »

I have this same problem.  I think it is neutral rattle, (normal) so will try changing to 85W140 BelRey lube.
try amsoil Vtwin transmission oil... it worked for me. I also use their primary oil. not trying to push amsoil, just saying I was impressed with the results of just a oil change. also I have 37k on the stock compensator with no issues. your results may vary
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trippy

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Re: Knocking from primary at hot idle
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2019, 07:16:36 AM »

Like other bike manufactures that had a similar problem with neutral/first gear rattle, Harley brought out a spring loaded first gear part number 35600103, it takes up the slack (if you have any), but unless you plan to take the transmission apart, as I did to fit a  baker reverse, then obvious first step is try a different fluid, the gear itself is about $70, but on top of that all the gaskets and oil for the tans and primary, so works out around $200/250 if you do it yourself.
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grc

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Re: Knocking from primary at hot idle
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2019, 07:49:32 AM »


Usually when it is a neutral rattle issue the noise will cease when you disengage the clutch.  The reason is that once the clutch is disengaged the input shaft of the trans stops turning.  If the shaft isn't turning, there shouldn't be any gear movement to create the noise.  If disengaging the clutch doesn't change or eliminate the noise, I'd be more inclined to look for something other than neutral rattle.

Is this a new problem or a problem that has always been there since new? 

Jerry
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fastfreddy

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Re: Knocking from primary at hot idle
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2019, 09:02:22 PM »

 noise on mine was from day one (picked bike up with 11 miles) neutral rattle, was told to ride it and it would heal its self in about a thousand miles... so other wise, they all do that is what I was told. any how, around 25k miles it did quit making noise  :nixweiss: the only thing I did was change oil, I change all 3 holes every 5k. again your results may vary. this is on my current bike 16 RGU
« Last Edit: August 26, 2019, 09:08:34 PM by fastfreddy »
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Pan1

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Re: Knocking from primary at hot idle
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2019, 09:45:29 PM »

Both my 2010 and 2015 CVO's had a "Hot" idle rattle. Both were corrected by raising the idle rpm up about 50.
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1roadking

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Re: Knocking from primary at hot idle
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2019, 10:04:21 AM »

Good to know about the idle, I have neutral rattle as well but this is a loud constant knock. Looks like I’m going to have to have the hot idle setting turned up.
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Unbalanced

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Re: Knocking from primary at hot idle
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2019, 01:13:02 PM »

1roadking 

It maybe the pulses of the engine causing your noise at the compensator

1 check the stack height of your compensator

Did you put a Timken in the cases?   If so did you change the washer out ?    you need to/supposed to if you didn’t and installed the Timken cost is roughly  ($17-$20)

1 - could try reducing timing at idle speeds to see if it has an effect
2 - could try a solid sprocket
3 - could try the GMR compensaver - think you may find that small bearing isn’t helping
4 - add a 2nd large spring to the mix make it stiffer.  There is even a new Kit think it’s drag spec that has a slightly stiffer set too (haven’t tried it)
5 - manual chain tensioner may also help, but a pain as every 4-6k you are going to have to remove the primary on the twin cams.
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grc

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Re: Knocking from primary at hot idle
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2019, 01:15:10 PM »

Good to know about the idle, I have neutral rattle as well but this is a loud constant knock. Looks like I’m going to have to have the hot idle setting turned up.

Is this knock a new thing, or has it always been there?  I noticed you had the compensator replaced recently, was the knock the reason you had it replaced?  Is it worse now than before?   The reason I'm asking these questions isn't because I'm just nosy btw.  If the compensator was replaced and the bolt not fully seated in the crankshaft, there will be clearance between parts that should not be there and that will in fact cause a knocking sound.  It is not something new, many people have had this issue.

Jerry
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1roadking

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Re: Knocking from primary at hot idle
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2019, 09:37:06 PM »

So my primary seems quieter since I had it checked and thicker fluid put in, but now my clutch is slipping 2 up under a load in 5th and 6th gear. I’m wondering if it’s the primary fluid he put in. I think it was bellray primary fluid.
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Para Bellum

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Re: Knocking from primary at hot idle
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2019, 10:03:58 PM »

So my primary seems quieter since I had it checked and thicker fluid put in, but now my clutch is slipping 2 up under a load in 5th and 6th gear. I’m wondering if it’s the primary fluid he put in. I think it was bellray primary fluid.
It could be there's too much fluid in the primary.  That causes lubricant to get up into the friction plates.  No friction = slippage.  Don't ask how I know.   ;)
« Last Edit: September 16, 2019, 02:01:10 AM by Para Bellum »
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1roadking

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Re: Knocking from primary at hot idle
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2019, 11:20:46 AM »

Ok, so this problem seems to be fixed. The knocking was the compensator, it was fixed by adding two spacers from HD to tighten up the stack spec. It’s a billeting from HD that my dealer and 2 independents missed. I finally found a guy that knows what he’s doing lol. Not only is the knock basically gone but so is the vibration it had and it feels way smoother at low steady RPMs around town. Apparently this is a new spec that is suppose to be checked on all comps and the washers added to achieve spec which equates to preload on the computer spring. I could not be happier with the improvement:)
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Mr. Warlock

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Re: Knocking from primary at hot idle
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2019, 07:28:01 AM »

Ok, so this problem seems to be fixed. The knocking was the compensator, it was fixed by adding two spacers from HD to tighten up the stack spec. It’s a billeting from HD that my dealer and 2 independents missed. I finally found a guy that knows what he’s doing lol. Not only is the knock basically gone but so is the vibration it had and it feels way smoother at low steady RPMs around town. Apparently this is a new spec that is suppose to be checked on all comps and the washers added to achieve spec which equates to preload on the computer spring. I could not be happier with the improvement:)

Can you post the part numbers for these spacers please?
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1roadking

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Re: Knocking from primary at hot idle
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2019, 08:55:22 PM »

I can not believe how much better the bike feels with the compensator properly shimmed! It’s so much quieter, but also way smoother at lower speeds and throttle settings, it has made me fall back in love with my bike!
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old_bikes

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Re: Knocking from primary at hot idle
« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2019, 10:49:31 PM »

I think the part number is for the thrust washer, 6557.
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1roadking

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Re: Knocking from primary at hot idle
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2019, 02:59:42 PM »

Depending on the measurements you can use up to 3 I believe. Mine needed 2 to meet spec.
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Re: Knocking from primary at hot idle
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2019, 03:54:35 PM »

The shims are part number 10300021 and are 0.031" thick.  I'm not so sure this bulletin applies to CVO models however, the M-1352 bulletin I read said it was just for the non-CVO models.  Unless they updated it recently?

Jerry
« Last Edit: October 11, 2019, 04:01:25 PM by grc »
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Re: Knocking from primary at hot idle
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2020, 11:02:33 AM »

Do you think this could be my noise in my primary? LOL 1500 miles on a 130 build and it exploded.
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1roadking

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Re: Knocking from primary at hot idle
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2020, 11:10:05 PM »

Wow!!
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