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Author Topic: Indian VS Harley  (Read 1395 times)

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muddypaws

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Re: Indian VS Harley
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2019, 08:14:43 AM »

Interesting read, very closely rated. 
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scotman623

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Re: Indian VS Harley
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2019, 09:44:06 AM »

Good Read!!!!
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Mark

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Re: Indian VS Harley
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2019, 09:49:58 AM »

Generally I take these "shootouts" between competing brands with a grain of salt.  Motorcycle publications make their money on advertising and they're not going to alienate companies that advertise with them.   
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J.D.

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Re: Indian VS Harley
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2019, 09:55:52 AM »

Bottom line - Harley needs to refine the suspension further.  What is not noted is that Harley needs to resolve the engine sumping issue.
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CVOStreetglide

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Re: Indian VS Harley
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2019, 12:02:11 PM »

Bottom line - Harley needs to refine the suspension further.  What is not noted is that Harley needs to resolve the engine sumping issue.



What sumping issue??    :vrolijk_9: :vrolijk_9:
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Re: Indian VS Harley
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2019, 02:23:43 PM »

One would think that a Challenger/ Goldwing comparison would be more accurate considering the liquid cooling on both of them.

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scottt

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Re: Indian VS Harley
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2019, 03:20:21 PM »

One would think that a Challenger/ Goldwing comparison would be more accurate considering the liquid cooling on both of them.

Sent from my boring Droid phone.
Add to that comparison the BMW K1600B or Bagger. Also water cooled.

A great shootout comparison would be the Harley Roadglide Special, Indian Challenger, Honda Goldwing, Yamaha Venture and BMW K1600B or Bagger. All different approaches to the Bagger market. Take them all on a 200+ mile ride, compare suspension, handling, comfort, performance, brakes, features, overall enjoyment of the ride. All 2020 models.

Would enjoy reading

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Mark

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Re: Indian VS Harley
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2019, 10:43:01 AM »

Add to that comparison the BMW K1600B or Bagger. Also water cooled.

A great shootout comparison would be the Harley Roadglide Special, Indian Challenger, Honda Goldwing, Yamaha Venture and BMW K1600B or Bagger. All different approaches to the Bagger market. Take them all on a 200+ mile ride, compare suspension, handling, comfort, performance, brakes, features, overall enjoyment of the ride. All 2020 models.

Would enjoy reading

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While the new IM Challenger has gotten glowing accolades in media reviews, I don’t see it or the Road Glide coming close to the BMW K1600B in a head to head comparison.  About the only thing the BMW would lose on is the somewhat outdated dash/gps.
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J.D.

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Re: Indian VS Harley
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2019, 10:48:42 AM »

Yes, while it is a good v-twin comparison,  this is arguably a competition for 3rd place in the broader bagger market.
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scottt

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Re: Indian VS Harley
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2019, 11:34:12 AM »

Yes, while it is a good v-twin comparison,  this is arguably a competition for 3rd place in the broader bagger market.
Sadly, you are correct. May even be 4th place. A real market wide bagger comparison would be informative.

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dayne66

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Re: Indian VS Harley
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2019, 11:48:35 AM »

Sadly, you are correct. May even be 4th place. A real market wide bagger comparison would be informative.

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Seeing as how my next bike will be my last........I want something that'll not take so much effort to keep running.
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scottt

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Re: Indian VS Harley
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2019, 12:32:42 PM »

Seeing as how my next bike will be my last........I want something that'll not take so much effort to keep running.
I'm on my last bike, decision was based on comfort, suspension, performance, availability of certain options like reverse. The overall enjoyment/wow factor during the test ride. Tempered from owning 12 new Harley's including a CVO over 28 years.

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Mark

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Re: Indian VS Harley
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2019, 01:17:44 PM »

I'm on my last bike, decision was based on comfort, suspension, performance, availability of certain options like reverse. The overall enjoyment/wow factor during the test ride. Tempered from owning 12 new Harley's including a CVO over 28 years.

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IMO, it’s going to be hard beating shaft drive, intuitive head-lighting, traction control, cornering ABS, reverse, 160 hp, heated seat and grips, adjustable electronics suspension, hill-stop control, clutch-less up and down shifting, variable ride modes, water cooling, great handling, suspension, braking, torque, & power.  I’m sure I forgot a few things.  Oh, and a silky smooth ride.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2019, 01:19:28 PM by Mark »
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scottt

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Re: Indian VS Harley
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2019, 01:40:37 PM »

IMO, it’s going to be hard beating shaft drive, intuitive head-lighting, traction control, cornering ABS, reverse, 160 hp, heated seat and grips, adjustable electronics suspension, hill-stop control, clutch-less up and down shifting, variable ride modes, water cooling, great handling, suspension, braking, torque, & power.  I’m sure I forgot a few things.  Oh, and a silky smooth ride.
Very hard. Especially the engine. It's a beautiful thing. Especially for the price.

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scottt

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Re: Indian VS Harley
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2019, 07:49:00 PM »

With all this said, still enjoy Harley's, especially CVO'S. Nothing wrong with owning more than one brand. Two is good, three or more is great!

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scotman623

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Re: Indian VS Harley
« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2019, 08:20:03 PM »

They ALL are good!! Buy whatever makes you happy!!!! I hope the Challenger turns out to be an excellent bike for whoever chooses to buy one...
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Re: Indian VS Harley
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2019, 07:58:48 AM »

Honda has had Liquid Cooled V-twins with Shaft Drive for decades....   Harley owners didn't run out and buy Shadows, Valkyries or Sabres.
The Technology in a Goldwing rivals just about anything...  Harley owners don't buy 'em.
The Indian Challenger is an interesting bike for sure but I just don't think they are going to make that big of an impact.

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J.D.

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Re: Indian VS Harley
« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2019, 09:16:05 AM »

I don't know about that.

A Harley buddy of mine just jumped ship and bought a new Goldwing.  I checked it out and it is an incredible bike.  Seeing plenty of BMWs and Indians in the area and at the regular bike stops.  Sure nothing compared to the number of Harleys overall but 2017+ Harley vs "other brands" is a different story.


Local Indian dealer is always packed with people.  Can't say the same about the Harly dealer, well, that is if you exclude the service department LOL.
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scottt

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Re: Indian VS Harley
« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2019, 01:27:52 PM »

Honda has had Liquid Cooled V-twins with Shaft Drive for decades....   Harley owners didn't run out and buy Shadows, Valkyries or Sabres.
The Technology in a Goldwing rivals just about anything...  Harley owners don't buy 'em.
The Indian Challenger is an interesting bike for sure but I just don't think they are going to make that big of an impact.
Rode Harleys exclusively for 28 years, purchased 12 new, when I was in the market for a 2018 I did a lotta research, test rode different bikes and settled  on the BMW K1600B.

That is not to say I'm not still a HD lover, there is something special about Harley's. Simply wanted a new bike that did everything well right from the showroom floor. Rolland Sands designed or styled the K1600B from concept 101 and I really liked what he did. The style attracted me, the performance, handling, ride, features and value sold me. Simply a different motorcycle than a Harley, each has it's own set of positives. Yes, there are some things I prefer about Harley. 

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Mark

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Re: Indian VS Harley
« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2019, 10:06:42 AM »

Honda has had Liquid Cooled V-twins with Shaft Drive for decades....   Harley owners didn't run out and buy Shadows, Valkyries or Sabres.
The Technology in a Goldwing rivals just about anything...  Harley owners don't buy 'em.
The Indian Challenger is an interesting bike for sure but I just don't think they are going to make that big of an impact.
Will the Challenger make that big of an impact?  Time will tell...if the MoCo introduces a model that emulates the Challenger, then I’d have to say it had an impact.  I’m speculating HD is hurriedly working on something to compete with the Challenger - water cooled, higher HP/torque, better suspension, braking, handling, etc.
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scottt

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Re: Indian VS Harley
« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2019, 11:30:48 AM »

Will the Challenger make that big of an impact?  Time will tell...if the MoCo introduces a model that emulates the Challenger, then I’d have to say it had an impact.  I’m speculating HD is hurriedly working on something to compete with the Challenger - water cooled, higher HP/torque, better suspension, braking, handling, etc.
Your right on target. Harley has been counting on brand loyalty to sell there touring line, that's no longer enough.

In the past Harley updated one major component at a time, in my opinion that's not enough. The frame needs a complete redesign using aluminum to save weight, the suspension would also need a redesign with electronic suspension controls, it's past time for a 125+ HP and 125+ TQ rating motor. Currently Harley has the lowest OEM horsepower ratings of any touring bike on the market. Harley can't compete in this position.

Why Harley is spending R&D dollars on electric bikes, a adventure bike and sport bike before investing in there top selling line is beyond me? Maybe it's because I'm old :)

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Re: Indian VS Harley
« Reply #22 on: December 28, 2019, 12:02:16 PM »

Just my .02 scottt but I feel H-D is thinking more on a global scale and smaller bikes will sell more overseas so in turn their profits would be greater.
They are also trying to get the youth market and not so concerned with the large touring bike crowd since we are getting too old to ride or just dying off.
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Re: Indian VS Harley
« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2019, 12:37:49 PM »

Will the Challenger make that big of an impact?  Time will tell...if the MoCo introduces a model that emulates the Challenger, then I’d have to say it had an impact.  I’m speculating HD is hurriedly working on something to compete with the Challenger - water cooled, higher HP/torque, better suspension, braking, handling, etc.

Based upon past experiences, I would not even consider purchasing a new HD with a newly designed engine, transmission, etc.  I would cost too much to correct and it would be all my fault, they all do that, etc.

HD is really burned the bridge of reliability.

 :oops: :nixweiss:
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Re: Indian VS Harley
« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2019, 01:22:44 PM »

Just my .02 scottt but I feel H-D is thinking more on a global scale and smaller bikes will sell more overseas so in turn their profits would be greater.
They are also trying to get the youth market and not so concerned with the large touring bike crowd since we are getting too old to ride or just dying off.
VaEagle, while what your thinking has merit, how does Harley keep there large dealer network going in the USA? The day is coming when buyers will demand performance, handling, ride, features right off the showroom floor when spending $20,000 to $50,000 for a motorcycle. Dealers won't be able to stay in business by installing stage kits, suspension, on and on. Average buyer spending thousands to fix bikes inadequate features.

The brand would also loose it's image if they become more of a small bike manufacturer.

Harley has the brand, image and dealer network. They have the best designs or style. They now need to leverage from that strength and build world class quality along with competitive performance, ride, handling and features. They can do it, just a question of commitment.

Personally and sadly I won't buy another new one until or if that happens. My BMW K1600B or Bagger has spoiled me. If I were buying a Harley today I'd buy a older bike, a 01 to 03 carb model or a late production Evo. They were good bikes.

Sorry for the long rant :)

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scottt

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Re: Indian VS Harley
« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2019, 01:28:15 PM »

Based upon past experiences, I would not even consider purchasing a new HD with a newly designed engine, transmission, etc.  I would cost too much to correct and it would be all my fault, they all do that, etc.

HD is really burned the bridge of reliability.

 :oops: :nixweiss:
I've had the same experience. The first few months of Rushmore ownership was hell. My 14 Limited had coolant dumping issues that they had a hard time fixing. Had lotta issues with a 07 CVO ultra as well. Both first year "upgrades".

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Re: Indian VS Harley
« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2019, 06:22:35 PM »

Will the Challenger make that big of an impact?  Time will tell...if the MoCo introduces a model that emulates the Challenger, then I’d have to say it had an impact.  I’m speculating HD is hurriedly working on something to compete with the Challenger - water cooled, higher HP/torque, better suspension, braking, handling, etc.
Not too sure about HD doing anything in a hurry to keep up with a new model of a competitor. I'm thinking they will see what kind of sales the Challenger produces for a few years before they get to work on anything. If Polaris starts to change more touring bikes over to the new power plant without losing sales, then HD might get a sense or urgency. JMHO.

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Re: Indian VS Harley
« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2019, 11:40:08 PM »

Not to be a "Polly Anna" here and hurt the momentum of this thread but as I have posted before I have both a 19 Mako with the stage 4 and a 19 BMW Bagger (Grand America) that has a "Bren Tune" on it that increases power as well as faster throttle response and eliminates the 101 MPH limiter. Of course I love the performance of the BMW but also love that with the Mako's GTS Boom system with Apple Play I can stay connected through texting. All my people at work as well as my family know when I am on my Harley they can text me and I will answer immediately which I cant do on the BMW (their system is absolutely horrible!). If I have "stuff" going on I have to take the Harley if I want to ride.
Yes I upgraded the suspension to the Harley to get it to perform safely at high speeds (as well as comfort of course) but also had to spend a small fortune on the BMW to put on the same audio system I put on the Harley. Also took huge effort and multiple tries and money to get the BMW riding position comfortable for me to be able to do 500 mile days like I do on the Harley.
Bottom line for me is I really do love both bikes though they definitely have completely different strengths. If you go to the BMW K1600 forum you will see the people there "piling on" BMW for the items I mentioned above plus many more very similar to this forum. there is no perfect bike in my opinion but what is perfect is being able to be out riding any motorcycle and making it home safe at the end of that ride.
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Re: Indian VS Harley
« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2019, 12:06:43 AM »

Not to be a "Polly Anna" here and hurt the momentum of this thread but as I have posted before I have both a 19 Mako with the stage 4 and a 19 BMW Bagger (Grand America) that has a "Bren Tune" on it that increases power as well as faster throttle response and eliminates the 101 MPH limiter. Of course I love the performance of the BMW but also love that with the Mako's GTS Boom system with Apple Play I can stay connected through texting. All my people at work as well as my family know when I am on my Harley they can text me and I will answer immediately which I cant do on the BMW (their system is absolutely horrible!). If I have "stuff" going on I have to take the Harley if I want to ride.
Yes I upgraded the suspension to the Harley to get it to perform safely at high speeds (as well as comfort of course) but also had to spend a small fortune on the BMW to put on the same audio system I put on the Harley. Also took huge effort and multiple tries and money to get the BMW riding position comfortable for me to be able to do 500 mile days like I do on the Harley.
Bottom line for me is I really do love both bikes though they definitely have completely different strengths. If you go to the BMW K1600 forum you will see the people there "piling on" BMW for the items I mentioned above plus many more very similar to this forum. there is no perfect bike in my opinion but what is perfect is being able to be out riding any motorcycle and making it home safe at the end of that ride.
Sometimes the glass really is half full--
Your post proves, we all are different :) I say that light hearted. To me the BMW audio system is just fine, I'm just not into stereo systems on bikes. To each there own.

Totally agree, a Harley has a different purpose than a k1600 BMW. That's a good thing. Still think Harley should up there game, but that's me.

Happy to have choices, could care less what anyone rides. Only thing that matters is getting out, enjoying the open road.

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Re: Indian VS Harley
« Reply #29 on: December 29, 2019, 07:30:58 AM »

Will the Challenger make that big of an impact?  Time will tell...if the MoCo introduces a model that emulates the Challenger, then I’d have to say it had an impact.  I’m speculating HD is hurriedly working on something to compete with the Challenger - water cooled, higher HP/torque, better suspension, braking, handling, etc.

Not sure how much of an impact the Challenger will have.  Every brand touring bike has better suspension then Harley.  They all have more power.  Most all have ride modes and so on.

Harleys touring bike frame is now in its 11th year.  Long past due for an upgrade / redesign.  Suspension is still in need of an upgrade.  They need to add ride modes like the others have, electronically adjustable suspension.  More power is needed also. 

Quality is another issue with Harley.  I have noticed a big decline in quality over the past couple years.  Seat on my 19 has been replaced due to excessive wear at 13K miles, my 18 trade in was there with 25K miles and no seat wear.  I know three other 19's with seats replaced do to wear.
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Re: Indian VS Harley
« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2019, 10:39:35 AM »

Not too sure about HD doing anything in a hurry to keep up with a new model of a competitor. I'm thinking they will see what kind of sales the Challenger produces for a few years before they get to work on anything. If Polaris starts to change more touring bikes over to the new power plant without losing sales, then HD might get a sense or urgency. JMHO.

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A sense of urgency will have Harley rushing new things to market with even less in-house testing....as we have seen, not really conducive putting out a reliable product.
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Re: Indian VS Harley
« Reply #31 on: December 29, 2019, 11:05:00 AM »

I'm fine with Harley not having the power of a water cooled 4 or 6 cylinder.  I prefer the simplicity and look of 2 cylinders.  I also don't like the introduction of "partially water cooled" - either go water cooled or don't.

Where Harley really lost me as a customer is with the quality issues, really moreso how they are handling the quality issues.  Until they can make a very reliable drivetrain with no excuses I won't buy another one.  Indian is my first choice for "classic v-twin" and either the new BMW or Goldwing for "high tech".
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Re: Indian VS Harley
« Reply #32 on: December 29, 2019, 11:55:08 AM »

Really, Harley can thank the one percent M/C's for much of there success. They have stayed with Harley through thick and thin. The "bad boy" image has been a major part of how Harley has marketed themselves vs being a competitive product.

The question is; will that be enough moving forward? In my opinion that answer is no.

If M/C members ever start moving to bikes like the new Challenger, Harley will really suffer.

Harley has visual quality down, i prefer the looks and style of a Road Glide over the Challenger. They just need to invest in drivetrain quality. Stop sourcing engine components like the crankshaft to China. I agree with other posters, if Harley was known for class leading quality, durability you could look past some of the other shortfalls. The CEO needs to tell stockholders that they are going to make this there focus to secure there future. Take the long term view.

Harley's problems are not the fault of American workers or there wages. BMW as one example pays it's workers in Germany more than Harley workers. Wages in Japan are high as well. The problem is management and priorities. We all miss Willie!

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Mark

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Re: Indian VS Harley
« Reply #33 on: December 29, 2019, 04:04:55 PM »

JM2C...The average Fortune 500 CEO tenure is about five years.  A CEO’s personal compensation and longevity lives and dies by stock performance.  If a CEO knows he/she is only there for five yrs. or less, he/she’s looking for max profitability in a short time.  Since we’re not making anymore Baby Boomers and efforts to expand the brand to Gen X and Y produced tepid results, the surest way to achieve profit is to cut costs.  The long-term result of this negatively impacts the company down the road, but by then, the CEO has received his/her performance bonuses and moved on.  In order for senior mgmt to survive, I expect to see more quiet outsourcing and a reduction in labor costs. 

If mgmt. hadn’t been asleep at the wheel 20 yrs. ago, HD could have positioned itself to better deal with their current situation.   Maybe hiring a soup and protein bar executive would help?  No wait, they already tried that... 
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J.D.

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Re: Indian VS Harley
« Reply #34 on: December 29, 2019, 04:52:07 PM »

That's a chronic problem for many large, publicly held companies.  Decisions are influenced by investors looking for instant gratification and senior management looking out for their own best interests.  Unfortunately when HD went back public this was inevitable.
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