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[RJ749]

Sorry to hear of your ring gear issues Howie.  Totally sucks at most any mileage but at 500 it really sucks.

Wouldn't it figure that every time you talked about the warranty you were knocking on wood and missed it just tht one time.  All kidding aside, good to have the warranty.  I think the dealer makes more of the call than he is letting on too.  At least it works that way in the car business.

Good luck with the hassle and hopefully you're on the raod quickly.  A new chrome starter would be nice, I sure like looking at mine after the trueduals were installed.

[Mikey]

Hoist,
My friend with a 07 Road King 96 CI. Had the starter lock up with 600 miles! The wrench at the dealer said he was seeing a few. He said it was a ECM problem, to much advance at start up causing a kick back. There was a recall to reflash the ECM but his was after the correction so the recall must not have fixed the problem. He noticed the problem because the clutch would not disengage. He found out that it had so many teeth missing from the ring gear and the starter drive they were making the clutch not function. Needless to say he is not happy with a 600 mile bike in the shop with some of the parts on back order.
Mikey

[Hoist!]

Thanks Rog, and thanks for the input Mikey, and welcome to Full Club membership with your 100th Post! I haven't heard anything about an ECM flash, but the PC should be able to take care of timing issues, once I dyno it. I hadn't heard about these timing issues from anyone else yet. The tech said that the jackshaft pinion gear wasn't returning fast enough, causing this. He attributed this to a bad starter as the main culprit in the chain of events. Who knows. I hope he replaces as much as they let him. He's a pretty good guy, but I guess they have procedures, for certain failures, that the factory must get involved in. I'll see what they come back with, once it's apart. Hoist!

[mr_magoo]

They had issues with the compensator nut coming loose on some of the 04 SEEG (i had it happen) and they said that the nuts where miss torqued.  They used red loctite and retorqued I never had issues again.

[cuthbertss]

They had issues with the compensator nut coming loose on some of the 04 SEEG (i had it happen) and they said that the nuts where miss torqued.  They used red loctite and retorqued I never had issues again.

Magoo

thanks for the comp nut flashback!!!!!
It is specially designed to come loose and explode in the middle of nowhere!!!!

[RJ749]

Magoo

thanks for the comp nut flashback!!!!!
It is specially designed to come loose and explode in the middle of nowhere!!!!

Isn't that just typical.

[cuthbertss]

Isn't that just typical.

Amen
but i did get to ride in a dually with no AC in 113 degree heat for like 4 hours !!!
and meet some new friends at Grand Junction HD

so there was a plus side to it

[Tros]

Is this problem peculiar to the A motors? 

[djkak]

Thanks dj. I can't shake that uneasy feeling about the design of this Primary set up. Can you explain more about this Primary set up on these '07's. That whole banging thing is creepy. I can't see how that's good! Are they trying to compensate (no pun) for a primary/statarting system originally designed for 50 HP now work with high HO/TQ motors? Can anything be done to make it stronger? I could use a good Technical Dump again! Thanks man. Hoist!

Let’s look at this from the perspective of a 1993 96” EVO stroker. The starting system components of this machine operate in a truly brutal environment. If starter clutches were on backorder, you would sweat it, even if yours was still working. Considering the high loads on this system, the ring gear was never the weak link; the starter clutch would always fail first. Come to think of it, I don’t recall any significant issues with the one-piece ring gear. The early electric start machines had a laminated unit that would regularly soil the nest.

The mechanical load on the starting system of your 110” machine has been reduced in a number of significant ways, including:

The 110” stroke is ¼” shorter than the 96” EVO,
The primary ratio has changed, substantially reducing the load.
The starter pinion to ring gear ratio has changed, reducing the load.
The ECM has much broader control over the startup process.
Automatic compression release.

The one-piece ring gear has passed the test of time, under greater loads than they are subjected to today. It is my humble opinion that the issues with the fractured ring gear teeth are the result of a manufacturing issue that is easily recognized and corrected. IMHO, this is a no brainier; have your Dealer fix you up.

The compensating sprocket is another issue. The primary ratio change that works so well for the starter increases the load of the comp sprocket. This is a new piece without much history, so it’s hard to get a good sense of the real issues. Since the load on the spring assembly has increased I am thinking about issues with the long term reliability; although broken springs in the previous units are a non-event; no big deal. At this point, I wouldn’t get too worked up about the comp sprocket rattle.

djkak

[Hoist!]

Let’s look at this from the perspective of a 1993 96” EVO stroker. The starting system components of this machine operate in a truly brutal environment. If starter clutches were on backorder, you would sweat it, even if yours was still working. Considering the high loads on this system, the ring gear was never the weak link; the starter clutch would always fail first. Come to think of it, I don’t recall any significant issues with the one-piece ring gear. The early electric start machines had a laminated unit that would regularly soil the nest.

The mechanical load on the starting system of your 110” machine has been reduced in a number of significant ways, including:

The 110” stroke is ¼” shorter than the 96” EVO,
The primary ratio has changed, substantially reducing the load.
The starter pinion to ring gear ratio has changed, reducing the load.
The ECM has much broader control over the startup process.
Automatic compression release.
The one-piece ring gear has passed the test of time, under greater loads than they are subjected to today. It is my humble opinion that the issues with the fractured ring gear teeth are the result of a manufacturing issue that is easily recognized and corrected. IMHO, this is a no brainier; have your Dealer fix you up.

The compensating sprocket is another issue. The primary ratio change that works so well for the starter increases the load of the comp sprocket. This is a new piece without much history, so it’s hard to get a good sense of the real issues. Since the load on the spring assembly has increased I am thinking about issues with the long term reliability; although broken springs in the previous units are a non-event; no big deal. At this point, I wouldn’t get too worked up about the comp sprocket rattle.

djkak

Thanks for the assessment dj. All that being said, what the hell do these engines need ACR's for then. Shorter stroke, lower compression. This engine shouldn't need ACR's. I hear the ACR's are half the problem with the banging around in there and teeth breaking. I agree that the ring gear is not causing the problem, but with many failures in primary, something is the weak link in there! Hoist!

[djkak]

Thanks for the assessment dj. All that being said, what the hell do these engines need ACR's for then. Shorter stroke, lower compression. This engine shouldn't need ACR's. I hear the ACR's are half the problem with the banging around in there and teeth breaking. I agree that the ring gear is not causing the problem, but with many failures in primary, something is the weak link in there! Hoist!

Let me try this again; the starter ring gear is the root cause of the ring gear failures on the ’07 machines; the ring gear caused the failure. The ring gears are failing because they have been incorrectly manufactured, and are too brittle. Properly manufactured ring gears have passed the test of time and are proven to be capable of standing up to extreme loads; unlike the ring gear in your machine. A properly manufactured ring gear will solve your problem. If I’m off base here it won’t take long to get that sorted out with the season coming on, and I will take my well deserved beating.

On the unrelated topic of starter load; the load is relative to the application. The 1993 stroker places much greater loads on the starter than your 2007 SERK. What about the starter’s original application? I could be wrong, but this starter looks a lot like an off-the-shelf starter that you might find on a 1990 Mitsubishi; or is that a MuchYouBitchedAt. A machine like this might have a 120 cubic inch four banger with a 20” ring gear. Relatively speaking, that is a walk in the park.

It is worth considering that historically, these starters have been a significant maintenance issue, especially in high performance applications. If the ACR’s can improve the long term performance of the starter and reduce maintenance issues that would be a good thing. I’ll bet you another 50 cents that when the ACR’s get some field time, you will see them used in a much broader application.

djkak

[DavidB]

Thanks Rog, and thanks for the input Mikey, and welcome to Full Club membership with your 100th Post! I haven't heard anything about an ECM flash, but the PC should be able to take care of timing issues, once I dyno it. I hadn't heard about these timing issues from anyone else yet. The tech said that the jackshaft pinion gear wasn't returning fast enough, causing this. He attributed this to a bad starter as the main culprit in the chain of events. Who knows. I hope he replaces as much as they let him. He's a pretty good guy, but I guess they have procedures, for certain failures, that the factory must get involved in. I'll see what they come back with, once it's apart. Hoist!

The starters are made by Denso Corp in Maryville ,TN.
I heard on the grapevine about 3 months back that Harley stopped the production on the original starters and had them re-enginered because of starting problems. I don't know if any part numbers were changed. Guess someone could look the starter number up and see if it reflects an update.
DAVE

[Hoist!]

The starters are made by Denso Corp in Maryville ,TN.
I heard on the grapevine about 3 months back that Harley stopped the production on the original starters and had them re-enginered because of starting problems. I don't know if any part numbers were changed. Guess someone could look the starter number up and see if it reflects an update.
DAVE

You could be right. My parts book shows the complete starter assembly, black, as 31619-06A. This doesn't come up as a good P/N in Zanotti's look up. Either does that number with suffix "B". It still shows up as 31619-06. No "A". The SERK Parts Catalog shows it with the "A" suffix. The P&A book shows it without the "A". The P&A book shows the Chrome as 31621-06 and that part looks up as No Good. But 31621-06A, with the "A" suffix, shows up as the high output Chrome Starter. Confusing! Hoist!

[DavidB]

You could be right. My parts book shows the complete starter assembly, black, as 31619-06A. This doesn't come up as a good P/N in Zanotti's look up. Either does that number with suffix "B". It still shows up as 31619-06. No "A". The SERK Parts Catalog shows it with the "A" suffix. The P&A book shows it without the "A". The P&A book shows the Chrome as 31621-06 and that part looks up as No Good. But 31621-06A, with the "A" suffix, shows up as the high output Chrome Starter. Confusing! Hoist!

HOIST,
     Look on the Chicago Harley web sight. 31621-06 look up shows the 31621-06a as a replacement.
DAVE

[Hoist!]

HOIST,
     Look on the Chicago Harley web sight. 31621-06 look up shows the 31621-06a as a replacement.
DAVE

That's what Zanotti's shows too. But they still show the one w/o the "A", 31619-06 as the Black one. What about Chicago? Do they show it as "A"? MY SERK Parts Book shows the "A". I'm curious whether my starter is the "A" mod or an older one. That's one way to make sure they replace it! I'm hoping they w.....ty my starter. Then I'll pay the $150 difference and no labor for the chrome one.. Maybe HD just wanted me to have their chrome chit. That's why this happened! Hoist!