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[greglyon]

If we had not over thrown the Iraq govt., Saddam would remain in power. From your post it is apparent that you would prefer Saddam to be alive and in power than the present situation we have in Iraq. 

Thank you for your response.

Let me be clear YES    Saddam in power 3000+ Americans still alive
Budget spent on fighting terrorist in Afghanistan.
 

[Midnight Rider]

Let me be clear YES    Saddam in power 3000+ Americans still alive
Budget spent on fighting terrorist in Afghanistan.
 

 

[DCFIREMANN]

No WMD's
No link to terrorists that threatened our country (At least before we invaded)No evidence of nuclear bombs.

If I joined the service to fight in Iraq under these false pretenses, I'd be pissed. 

Well that is Liberal Media at work again.  In fact there were WMD's and proof of it and also pretty good evidence that they were moved across the border into Syria.

I can promise you that you still need to live in FEAR of what might and still can happen in this country. They are not done with us.

I can not believe that anyone would let a bunch of third world terrorist come into this country and cause the BLOODIEST DAY IN AMERICAN HISTORY and just turn the other cheek.

The only problem I have with the war is they pulled troops out early. They should have kept them in there and kicked the living chit out of those towel heads.

I don't know if the LIBERAL MEDIA ever repoted or should I say leaked out the information about 5 suitcase size dirty bombs that are missing from the Soviet Union. The government know who has them but I don't think they know where they are.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[DCFIREMANN]

Having over 3000 of America's best die to give our notion of freedom to people who may or may not want it is just plain wrong.  If this was the only argument Bush had do you think we would be over there. 
We are not the moral authority for all the world's problems.  Hell, we can't even fix our own country.  It's time to care more about our own people both serviceman and civilians than the Iraqis.   Sorry to go off on you or anybody else out there.  I am just made as Hell about this whole mess we are in.

Sad but true!

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[iski]

I have no argument that Saddam was a bad person, but after the first Gulf War, his real ability to stir up chit in the area was stripped, as has been proven by the lack of discovery of his alleged weapons of mass destruction.  Whether he would have been able to develop them again is a matter of endless debate and a mute point now for sure.  In wars we've "won" (that in itself is a word that could be debated), we have not only won a military victory, but a moral and political one as well over both the government AND the people.  We basically squashed them in one way or the other.  We were basically dictators, though not imperialists in the traditional sense of the concept.

The American public, as indicated by every poll, and by the most recent elections, have little patience for the type of political/police action our military is currently engaged in...Vietnam should have taught us that lesson.

So yes, in a relative sense, the majority of the people in Iraq were probably sleeping better at night when Saddam was in power, and most of them could go about their quest for food, clothing, and shelter without much fear of having themselves or their children blown to hell and back by some idiot with a bunch of nails wrapped around his body with explosives underneath.  Democracy or some variation based on it, is not for everyone.  We seem to forget that from time to time.

The present administration is directly responsible for what it has unleashed in Iraq...no other.  No, we cannot just pick up and walk away now, but lack of proper foresight, and choosing to ignore all expert advice offered by both military and political experts in the arena, and only listening to what he wanted to hear deserves a special place in history.

Please understand that this is an editorial comment, and not directed at any particular individual of this board.  It is simply my opinion, and everybody knows what they say about those...

Likely turns into one of those agree to disagree discussions at about this point.

I favored the overthrow of Saddam's government when we went in and at this point have not changed my opinion on that issue.  How we went about it initially can be argued as to what we coulda/shoulda but the removal of Saddam from the region to me remains a big positive. Sure it could have been done better and mistakes were made.  Took many years to bring most of Europe back around post Hitler & WWII, but the conditions were different there.

Public opinion has shifted on this issue and political posturing abounds from both sides of the aisle.  Never been prouder to be an Indepent than now - neither political party has much to crow about at this point especially on the Iraq issue. 

As to whether the Iraquis were better off being tortured to death or simply killed by Saddam's sons and henchmen is also debateable.  AQ exists today in Iraq and if we leave then a tenuous situation could be worse than it already is.

As to selective advice listening - most of the world had formed the opinion on Saddam and WMD's & BOTH political parties are on record on the issue speaking about dire threats and such.  Even Al Gore.  The advice you refer to was considered a minority opinion and frankly only a few were of that opinion, although 20-20 hindsight has clouded more than a few historical revisionists as to that particular point.

Considering the current populist mantra "support the troops" and all is of current interest.  When it was election time in 2000 & 2004 the troops indicated by a 3 to 1 margin and more who they thought was supporting them best from a political perspective.  Will be interesting to see if this changes any in 2008.

Our opinions differ.  As far as I am concerned its partly due to politics and partly due to perception.  Both can be many faceted. Consideration of a variety of opinions has been of interest to me for a very long time.  Disagreements and such on matters politic and matters religious are inevitable, but gentlemen and gentlewomen can disgree with civil discourse, which differs greatly from so much of what we see currently in public discourse.

[iski]

Let me be clear YES    Saddam in power 3000+ Americans still alive
Budget spent on fighting terrorist in Afghanistan.
 

No surprise.

Personally quite pleased Saddam is dead and gone.

For $400 billion we could just buy a large portion of the Afghan/Pakistani border region. 

[Seegarsmkr]

I realize that this is a very heated topic, I am a service member that tries to be unbiased.  The media is very biased and as the election debate heats up the perceived wrongs will be accentuated and rights will be swept under the carpet.  Do you recall when the Dow was low and the economy was going to the toilet because of the oil problem and how Bush was the cause.  The Dow is at an all time high and is it Bush's fault this time...3K dead is a damn shame but in every metropolitan area in the US that is nearly a spit in the bucket yet who are the mayors in those towns...mostly Democrats yet we do not talk about those things.  For those who do not believe that Saddam had severe unstabilizing effect on the whole region, I think you are mistaken, WMD is debatable but the fact that he was financing terrorism, in my opinion, is not.  How shortsighted we have become, when this war began you would have better luck finding that proverbial needle in a hay stack or a Nightster in a dealership than find someone who was not behind the Iraq Freedom fight, now it is a huge issue because it did not fit the cookie cutter war of yesterday. Our military is continually learning, but it is the largest bureaucracy in the world so these things take time.  I can go on and on about the pros and cons of the military but this is not the place for that discussion.  I know both from the inside and out.  I appreciate all of the support as a service member that you have shown, to bash those that are trying to make a difference and protect your sons and daughters by fighting those bastards on their turf not ours I think is part of the real issue.  Political opinion changes like the wind and popular opinion, I am sad to say changes with the biased media.  Do not feel sorry or bad for the 3K soldiers, seamen, airmen and marines who have laid down their lives, most believe that they are there for good if not great reasons and they believe in the reasons for their deaths and that is noble not to mention their jobs as is mine.  There are many other countries that would like our help to change what they have and we assist in providing money and humanitarian assistance...but let us not forget that we went to Iraq and Afghanistan because we had a substantiated belief that they/their governments were supporting those that did us DIRECT harm on our soil.  I do not believe that democracy is for everyone but freedom is, those that do not believe that people deserve to be free are either those who take it for granted or in power by denying those rights to others.  I think I am done now and I am not trying to persuade anyone and I truly appreciate everyone's opinion, but I am one service member that supported this war on TERROR and still does.

Seegarsmkr

[iski]

I realize that this is a very heated topic, I am a service member that tries to be unbiased.  The media is very biased and as the election debate heats up the perceived wrongs will be accentuated and rights will be swept under the carpet.  Do you recall when the Dow was low and the economy was going to the toilet because of the oil problem and how Bush was the cause.  The Dow is at an all time high and is it Bush's fault this time...3K dead is a damn shame but in every metropolitan area in the US that is nearly a spit in the bucket yet who are the mayors in those towns...mostly Democrats yet we do not talk about those things.  For those who do not believe that Saddam had severe unstabilizing effect on the whole region, I think you are mistaken, WMD is debatable but the fact that he was financing terrorism, in my opinion, is not.  How shortsighted we have become, when this war began you would have better luck finding that proverbial needle in a hay stack or a Nightster in a dealership than find someone who was not behind the Iraq Freedom fight, now it is a huge issue because it did not fit the cookie cutter war of yesterday. Our military is continually learning, but it is the largest bureaucracy in the world so these things take time.  I can go on and on about the pros and cons of the military but this is not the place for that discussion.  I know both from the inside and out.  I appreciate all of the support as a service member that you have shown, to bash those that are trying to make a difference and protect your sons and daughters by fighting those bastards on their turf not ours I think is part of the real issue.  Political opinion changes like the wind and popular opinion, I am sad to say changes with the biased media.  Do not feel sorry or bad for the 3K soldiers, seamen, airmen and marines who have laid down their lives, most believe that they are there for good if not great reasons and they believe in the reasons for their deaths and that is noble not to mention their jobs as is mine.  There are many other countries that would like our help to change what they have and we assist in providing money and humanitarian assistance...but let us not forget that we went to Iraq and Afghanistan because we had a substantiated belief that they/their governments were supporting those that did us DIRECT harm on our soil.  I do not believe that democracy is for everyone but freedom is, those that do not believe that people deserve to be free are either those who take it for granted or in power by denying those rights to others.  I think I am done now and I am not trying to persuade anyone and I truly appreciate everyone's opinion, but I am one service member that supported this war on TERROR and still does.

Seegarsmkr

Seegarsmkr - Thank you for your service to our country from my family and I.  You said it better than I ever could and your perspective is most appreciated.  My friends in military service say much the same thing and when we talk their frustration with media & politicians is painful to hear at times, considering the position they are in. 

At the start of the war in Iraq, around 85%+ in the USA were all for the overthrow of Saddam & the govt. in Iraq.  Now 20-20 hindsight combined with historical revisionists led by many in the media has created a dynamic that requires a hypocrisy for some regarding this war that would be laughable were the subject not of such an extremely serious nature.  Just reading/viewing quotes of politicians who back tracked from their previous positions for perceived political gain (mostly Dems but a few Repubs) is a primer in the fickle nature of the world politic. 

God Bless! 

You ever get to ride in Okinawa?

[Seegarsmkr]

Iski,
I do indeed get to ride here, but my ride is not what I would like.  It is a scoot none the less but it is only a 400cc Kawi, far from all of the beautiful rides that I see around this site, but I will have mine after the 1st of June,and get to ride it in July.  I would have bought one here but the salty air, blowing coral dust and general humidity rusts everything that is metal...thus I bought a runabout for a few years until I can have a ride that will hold up.  Here, no matter what you do, chrome is a rust magnet and doesn't look so good when it is red-brown polka dot.

L8R,
Seegarsmkr

[iski]

Iski,
I do indeed get to ride here, but my ride is not what I would like.  It is a scoot none the less but it is only a 400cc Kawi, far from all of the beautiful rides that I see around this site, but I will have mine after the 1st of June,and get to ride it in July.  I would have bought one here but the salty air, blowing coral dust and general humidity rusts everything that is metal...thus I bought a runabout for a few years until I can have a ride that will hold up.  Here, no matter what you do, chrome is a rust magnet and doesn't look so good when it is red-brown polka dot.

L8R,
Seegarsmkr

Seegarsmkr,

With the exception of the blowing coral dust, I hear similar from folks who have bikes on the islands in FL.  Rust never sleeps.  June is just around the corner.  We take lots of stuff for granted - good roads, good rides, etc. and best we not forget those in other places whose service guarantees us the freedom to enjoy same.  I used to ride a Kawa or 2 or 3 or........let's just say several.

Mike

[Gettinold]

ONE THING FOR SURE IS, WHEN THE DUST FINALY SETTLES AND THE TROOPS ARE HOME, WE WILL KNOW WHO THE F@*K WON THIS WAR. UNTIL THEN CLOSE THE GATES AND WATCH YOUR BACK.
                                 GOD BLESS AMERICA

[SPIDERMAN]

The media is indeed biased. Some to the extreme right as is the case with Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh and some to the extreme left as is the case with Air America. And in between you get every slant imagineable. So you read it all and average it up and form an opinion. What other choice do you have? This administration has been caught in a hell of lot more lies than " I did not have sexual relations with that woman" And lies that have cost $1,700,000,000,000 and over 100,000 lives (yes folks civilian casualties count too) You can excoriate Sadaam all you want and rightly so. You can justify it anyway you want. but the facts are this war has cost the Iraqui people more in loss of life and property than 40 years of rule under Sadaam. And it has cost the American people the opportunity to properly educate all of our children; children who were promised as much under the Republican edict of " No child left behind" It has cost us the opportunity to right the ship of Social Security, pay for this President's promise of Prescription Benefits to it's senior citizens. And it has cost us the lives of over 3,000 of our bravest young men and women. Young men and women whom I work with every day. Young men and women whom I stand staight and tall with my hand on my heart every morning as our National Anthem is played. Young men and women whom I say " thank you for your service " every time I pass a gate guard. And I talk to these people every day and I can say with honest conviction that they do not support this President and this war. They do support their fellow men and women at arms As do I and millions of Americans like me who do not support this President or this war. America is a democracy. It's government is supposed to represent the will of it's people. This President and his henchmen do not represent me; nor do they represent the majority of the American people. They represent their own selfish interests and those of their cronies. Am I the only one who's noticed that the Republicans want language inserted into the next funding bill to go before the President for his signature which states " The Iraqui Government will begin the process of sharing their Oil Revenues with the United States " ? At last, the crux of the matter. Dick Chaney's master plan finally comes to the fore. What this administration has been after since day 1 of this conflict.

and this is my    if you've read this far, thank you for your time
B B

[ual767plt]

SPIDERMAN.......well said.

[iski]

One thing is certain - most of those who were formerly and still practicing Clinton apologists hate Bush.  Another thing for certain - both Bush apologists and Bush bashers have a tendency to either over simplify on issues to their favor and over state on issues adverse to their political oponnents positions.  Or vice-versa.  And most all of them think they are right.  It reminds me of a football game where both sides change the rules and then complain when the other side tries to do the same.

The matter at hand is of a much more serious nature than any of that and most unfortunately political leaders on both sides are continuing to choose to play politics instead of governing with an eye towards the overall safety and security of our nation. We as a nation have elected these people as our representatives so ultimately we have gotten what we have asked for by ballot.  We live in a republic, not a democracy, BTW.

[SPIDERMAN]

One thing is certain - most of those who were formerly and still practicing Clinton apologists hate Bush.  Another thing for certain - both Bush apologists and Bush bashers have a tendency to either over simplify on issues to their favor and over state on issues adverse to their political oponnents positions.  Or vice-versa.  And most all of them think they are right.  It reminds me of a football game where both sides change the rules and then complain when the other side tries to do the same.

The matter at hand is of a much more serious nature than any of that and most unfortunately political leaders on both sides are continuing to choose to play politics instead of governing with an eye towards the overall safety and security of our nation. We as a nation have elected these people as our representatives so ultimately we have gotten what we have asked for by ballot.  We live in a republic, not a democracy, BTW.

  Sounds like the daily talking points the RNC puts out to the faithful to me Iski !

      Sorry Dude, but I respectfully disagree. Homeland Security is the wedge the rich and powerful are using to leverage the entire country into their coffers. Doesn't matter which party you are talking about. That's just another smoke screen to distract you and me and most average folks from the real issues which is NWO. I'm not going off on a rant about NWO either since it's way too complicated and way to controversial to get into on a website dedicated to motor cycles. You are indeed right about one thing. I hate George W. Bush in a way I never thought myself capable of hating a public figure whom I do not personally know. I am even surprised at times by the breadth and depth of my hatred for this man. You're wrong about something else though. I am not a Clinton apologist. I'm a Reagan Republican.

B B