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[hd2003-se2005]

Good explanation Mike!

[Twolanerider]

OK let me try and understand this a bit more.

[LETS_ROLL]

OK, it's starting to make some sense.  Few more

1. So when the PC is installed, is the ecm taken out?
2. Is the reflash of the ecm done by the dealer?
3. Is the PC and the race tuner pretty much the same thing except one is harley and the other is not?  If not what's the diff.?  Let's Roll
 

[Twolanerider]

OK, it's starting to make some sense.

[mfgreen]

Lets_Roll,
If you think fuel map programming is difficult just try to program your ignition curve. This presumes you know more than the factory, which is doubtful. It also presumes you have some way of evaluating your changes which is even more doubful. In cylinder pressure transducer equipment, sensors and software runs well into the $100,000.00 range and properly equipped dyno cells with climate control can cost a million dollars or more. It is best you go with stock timing and then venture off into the various aftermarket solutions if you just have to fiddle with it. I have seen nothing but trouble in this area and am sick and tired of people telling me that they are going to kick their timing this way and that and they've never had a lick of training. Timing is a very tough business to play with and most people use it as a band-aid to cover poor engineering of other components...e.g. poor fuel control. You have a lot of things to worry about when you play engineer and this should be the last item on your list. Remember, proper scientific method is to alter one thing at a time and eliminate the variables. Adding ignition timing to the fray exponentially increases your problems.
Mike

[LETS_ROLL]

I wouldn't want to start anything like that.  So it's either you run a PC or a race tuner?
Thanks for the info.

[mfgreen]

I wouldn't want to start anything like that.

[Elvis]

I would agree with Mike.  Mine had the Race Tuner on it when I bought it so not my choice.  Had a PC on my Road King and it was great.  Problem with the Race Tuner is it is not as user friendly and I am having a hard time finding a wrench that really knows how to use it.  Both will accomplish the same but IMO the Power Commander is easier to fine tune by both rider and your local dyno shop.

YMMV,


elvis

[Unbalanced]

Where i agree and disagree the point is that the dynojet only allows for 500 rpm increments of change and the harley tuner allows for every 100 rpm and can raise and lower your rev limiter.

1.  I agree that for the person that wants or needs more availablity to a tuner the dyno jet commander pcIII is better due to most dyno guys that are not at a harley dealership do not play with and generally refuse to work with harleys tuner.

But remember just because you got X numbers at one shop pay the 35 bucks and go to 2 other shops and see if the numbers are consistent.   There are ways to manipulate the numbers so dont fall prey to the numbers game.  

2.  For the guy that will run the Power Commander that they should probably have at least the stage 1 installed to allow them a fall back incase their PCIII dies and they must remove it in order to get the bike running.   again another advantage is they get their rev limiter raised to 6200 from 5800.

3.   For the person that wants to spend the money on the time to tune or has a dyno guy that will work with the harley tuner and can do a good job of balancing the cylinders and giving an good flat fuel curve I would think the harley tuner is the way to go one less piece in the system to possibly go wrong.   By the time you buy the power commander and the stage 1  you have already spent more than the harley tuner.

4.  My only issue with the power commander is that it lies to the ECM to get its job done.   Somehow being in the computer field this just worries me,  but i will say that I will be doing a comparison very shortly and will let you know the results.  I am putting a Tuner on my 05 SEEG and a Power Commander on the 04 SEEG.   They will both have air SE Air Cleaner / Rhinehart true duals with 2 1/4 baffles.   I have already purchased all the parts just need to be home long enough to arrange now to get the dyno work done.

Let the games begin.

Just my 2 cents.

-Unbalanced

[mfgreen]

Unbalanced,
I agree, wholeheartedly, with your observations of the comparison,especially in part 4 of your answer with the observation of the way in which the PC "lies" to the ECM.  There are additional products out there that operate with this methodology of altering the ECM programming.  Thankfully, most of the folks here have seen the problems of their (the other products) usage either firsthand or vicariously and have stayed away in droves.  In addition to larger throttle bodiesbeing queried in other threads, injectors themselves (Marren, for one) are increasing in availability. I think that in the quest for reliable, strong performance, some folks lose the balance.  Ifind that they either have a little friendly competition with one of their riding buddies, or they just try to own the ultimate.
Mike

[don]

I'm a little confused on this subject. Called freedom cycle the other day on there set up on the SERK, which I had the stag 1 chip installed over a year ago, said that they strongley recomend removing the stag 1 down load and put the orginal back in the ecm for the bike to perform right with the free flow, power commanderIII, & freedom pipes.                                                              don

[Unbalanced]

Don,

I can only surmise that they dont want to have to make changes in what they do ie negative settings on thier tuning where you could have to much fuel or air already in place.

IE your set for 14 fuel and they feel you need 12 at X rpm so they have to setup to be -2 instead of +7 or something like this.   That would be my best guess on it without talking to them.   The only negative about not having the stage 1 is that you might run way to lean before you could get somewhere safe.

-Unbalanced

[don]

unbalance                                                                                                                                          that makes since. do the power commanders have a history of faling or loose the memory once they are programed in? I'm now running the S.E. hi flow, S.E. mufflers & stag I down load. On the dyno the bike stays on the 14 to 1 mixture up to 3200 RPM , then it works it's way to 13 to 1 mixture at 5800. Max.  HP is a low 83.5 at 5000RPM with a smooth TQ line 97.5 at 3950 RPM. Would one benifit With a power commander installed with this set up? The fuel seems to be there, but I dont know were the timming is at. Never hered it ping, spark knock or back fire.                       don

[Unbalanced]

Don,

I have friends that have had Power Commanders go bad and DFO's (digital fuel optimizers) units go bad.   Here in florida we test most things to the limit with humidity / heat / rain.    Personally I prefer the Harley Race tuner if you can find someone who isnt going to rape you on the tuning and knows what the hell they are doing.   The reason I prefer it is one less piece in line to go bad and I am not tricking the computer to give me what I need and I have the ability to raise my rev limiter as well as tune the bike every hundred rpm's vs. every 500 with a commander.   That is simply personal preference.

If this is the 103 engine you can probably help yourself a bit with a Tuner of some kind.   I would probably recommend either a 2 into 1 pipe or a true duel setup though.
You have a 2 into 1 now for the most part with a ton of heat under your right thigh.   I hated this and the pipes were the first thing put on the bike to fix this.


My questions to you would be the normal questions

I am presuming you have just the stage 1 download in your bike?
What motor do you have in the bike?   Is this a 103
Do you have a high flow air cleaner?   SE Air Cleaner
What cam do you currently have?  253 ?
Have the heads been worked on?  My guess is that you have not based on your hp number

What pipes do you have on the bike?   SE pipes just the slip on mufflers right ?

I would love to see what your fuel curve looks like my guess is its going to be wavey.

What do you wish to get out of doing any of what your doing?  Torque down low / Horsepower for top end running ?   a mixture of both ?

My best advice if this is a 103 with a stage 1 and just slip ons with a high flow SE air cleaner would be to get a tuner either PC or Harley Race Tuner and put on a 2 into 1 or true duel depending on your taste and you should see your numbers around 100 - 104 and about the same in torque.

Personally I had the White Bro's E pipe 2 into 1 and changed it out for the Rhinehart's as I prefer the true 2 exaust look over 1 pipe.   That is just me.

-Unbalanced

[LETS_ROLL]

You guys are just too much, way over my head and I'm enjoying reading it all.  Keep it coming.  My 03 Heritage has a Mikuni 42 and a VH Pro pipe.  Now that I'm taking the plunge to the SEEG, this is all new.  For now I'm thinking of the Rineharts, a PC and SE air cleaner, to start.  I'm a little concern about the brake pedal and the pipes clearing it.  I read a few post saying there was a problem.  I guess I have a little time till mine comes in.