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[REGGAB]

maybe i can get vic to send a couple from new orleans, i think there is a surplus there------should be cheap.

That'd be great..........as long as they're packed in swamp water.  And while you're at it, have the cap'n send us some mud bugs, cob corn and new taters.  I'm gonna need some lunch when I get down there this weekend.  We coonass types like that chit!  

[Fired00d]

for those concerned about numbers, remember during the customer interview, henry demanded reliability above power output. engine is built based on interview.

our dyno is not "happy".

final tune will be for max drivability, cool running, economy, longevity.

for all purposes it will be a 1 to 1 motor.

note 87cc heads, flat tops, cams are 525 lift with early intake close.

pipes are not condusive to building serious HP. stayed with not-so-big valves to keep velocity.

all in all its a tq motor that will hit as early as the pipes allow.

add timing and put it on joes dyno,and spin it to 6500 rpm,and you can get braggin numbers!!!!!!

I don't think any of us that are asking are concerned about "bragging rights" as we all know that dyno's #'s are just a tool. I'd be more interested in what type of numbers a build like this has the possibility of yielding just for comparison purposes to other builds. Your answer of 1 to 1 (HP?) gives a ball park idea, but would this be the same for TQ also? That's what I would be more interested in. Thanks.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[rednectum]

I don't think any of us that are asking are concerned about "bragging rights" as we all know that dyno's #'s are just a tool. I'd be more interested in what type of numbers a build like this has the possibility of yielding just for comparison purposes to other builds. Your answer of 1 to 1 (HP?) gives a ball park idea, but would this be the same for TQ also? That's what I would be more interested in. Thanks.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

as you know, HP is a mathmatical equation of tq. so i usually talk torque numbers. and dont like to quote expectations because of the aforementioned controversies. 1 to 1.1 to 1 is huge!! take a 124 tq motor and remove the .1, you get around 110 tq. dyno calibration, operator, correction factors etc: can easily plus or minus .1 . so we all know how easy it is for a motor that showed 110 tq can out accelerate a motor that showed 124!!

as silver-black mentioned, we can look at beforre and after runs on the same dyno and see a percentage of gain (or loss) in most cases. i will leave it to the bike owner to post or not post said numbers.

[Hoist!]

Now that's mean! True but mean. We will probably get 37 to 40 post from Hoist in response to that one.

On Henry's motor I'm looking for a 10 to 12% higher # for torque than horsepower and a nice flat curve.

 

You got that right Chip. Pick on me all you want. Don't question Joe's integrity!

Rev limiter's set at 6300, so we didn't spin it to 6500!

TQ curve is nice and flat and is basically at peak from 2500 to 5000.

Dennis, I'm surprised to see you pickin' on Joe. There's no way you ain't showing the curve for this motor now. You picked the wrong build to throw stones at. The wrong tuner too. You're gonna have to show that strong, reliable, rideable build dyno sheet now. Unless that's just setting up a build that won't look too impressive!

The motor runs just like the curve looks (when it runs that is! )

And don't get your panties in a knot. This is tongue-in-cheek. My form of sarcastic humor. But ya'll can get PO'd cause you think I'm serious. Everything rolls right off these big shoulders! Let the post wars begin!

Hoist!

[Fired00d]

as you know, HP is a mathmatical equation of tq. so i usually talk torque numbers. and dont like to quote expectations because of the aforementioned controversies. 1 to 1.1 to 1 is huge!! take a 124 tq motor and remove the .1, you get around 110 tq. dyno calibration, operator, correction factors etc: can easily plus or minus .1 . so we all know how easy it is for a motor that showed 110 tq can out accelerate a motor that showed 124!!

as silver-black mentioned, we can look at beforre and after runs on the same dyno and see a percentage of gain (or loss) in most cases. i will leave it to the bike owner to post or not post said numbers.

Certainly you've had people shopping around for mods to ask what ballpark figures (HP/TQ) a build like this would produce. Maybe it's just me, but I would think people would at least want to know what to expect from the money they are spending even if it's a range it will give them something to compare to other mods/kits/builds. I understand that motors are different and what motor "X" gets might not be the same for motor "Y", also don't get hung up overall dyno numbers for the same reasons. Dyno "X" may give you these numbers, but same bike on dyno "Y" may produce different numbers if all conditions (temp/humidity/altitude) are the same.

The fact that Henry doesn't want to give his numbers is up to him, and I don't have a problem w/that. However for those that are looking to do some mods and are comparing money spent to value of the build I would think ballpark figures would be something they would want to know.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[Midnight Rider]

There will be numbers.  Acceleration numbers will be just as interesting as peak HP/TQ.  From what I've read about another one of Red's builds, when the rider picked his bike up, he was hitting the rev limiters in every gear until he re-learned how to ride the new motor because it got there QUICKLY.

Looks really good, Henry.  Anxious to hear the final results next week after the break in is completed.  Also interested in the new oil pressure numbers with the 07 style pump installed, and ultimately if it reduces some of the puking out the A/C.  From my understanding, the R&R plate helps with that issue as well, without worrying about the Mystfree's, etc.

Guys...my build MIGHT have a different cam, and slightly more compression...still hashing that out in my mind and talking with those who know best.  Reliabiltiy is the priority for me as well.  But, a few extra ponies/TQ is in the mix as well.

[djkak]

Is there going to be another go-around measuring runout with the camplate removed??

djkak

OK, too late; I see that I'm a little way behind the curve here. No big deal just curious, was the gearshaft runout on REGGAB's machine measured without the camplate in place?

No idea, and I'm not smart enough to know why that'd be necessary.  I do know that it was checked again after the new cam plate was installed, and there was no change.  I get the whole "wobble" factor, but I don't get the importantance of measuring the wobble without a structural component in place.  Enlighten me, please.  Thx.

Gearshaft runout is a symptom of crankshaft runout; sometimes called flywheel shift. In an assembled engine gearshaft runout is measured in order to gauge the degree of crankshaft runout. Look at it like measuring crankshaft rotation in order to determine the appropriate piston position for ignition; you are looking at one indicator to gauge the state of another.

The reason for removing the camplate prior to measuring runout is to remove the support that the camplate provides, allowing the gearshaft to move freely when the crankshaft is rotated.

In a perfectly straight crankshaft, the centerline of the sprocket shaft on the left runs straight through the centerline of the gear shaft on the right. When rotated the perfect alignment of the shafts results in an assembly with zero runout; no wobble.

All crankshafts will have some misalignment of the shafts. Excessive misalignment requires corrective action. The attachment illustrates a typical shift, where the right flywheel over-rotates; essentially rotating ahead of the left flywheel.

Visualize both flywheels spinning at 6,000 rpm when the rider drops the clutch from a standing start in second gear. The resulting load on the crankshaft will act to stop the rotation of the left flywheel while the inertia of the right flywheel will act to maintain its rotation. The only thing preventing the over-rotation of the right flywheel is the friction (press fit) between the crankpin and the flywheels.

The method to measure actual crankshaft runout is to remove the assembly from the crankcase and support it in a truing stand by the shaft centers on the ends of each shaft. Next position the dial indicators perpendicular to the shaft as close as possible to the flywheel; then rotate the assembly to measure runout. To correct misalignment you would remove the assembly from the stand and apply force as necessary to align the shafts.

A properly manufactured set of flywheels can be trued so the shafts have less than 0.001”, when measured using the method described above in the truing stand. Generally speaking, crankshaft runout of 0.001” in the truing stand will result in just over 0.002” of gearshaft runout when measured with the flywheels assembled in the cases.

According to H-D’s latest bulletin, 0.012” of gearshaft runout would be an indication that the crankshaft has approximately 0.004” of runout (shift).

djkak

[sadunbar]

During disassembly of my motor, I measured crank runout first by removing the crank/cam gears and chain and measuring at the gearshaft - with the cam plate in place - the runout result was .0012.

After removing the cam plate, I remeasured the runout at the gearshaft - and had a result of .0016. 

I then measured the runout again as close to the case as possible, and had a result of .0016.

When I get around to putting this back together, I will again measure runout at the gearshaft (after installing the new cam plate.

Scott

[rednectum]

You got that right Chip. Pick on me all you want. Don't question Joe's integrity!

Rev limiter's set at 6300, so we didn't spin it to 6500!

TQ curve is nice and flat and is basically at peak from 2500 to 5000.

Dennis, I'm surprised to see you pickin' on Joe. There's no way you ain't showing the curve for this motor now. You picked the wrong build to throw stones at. The wrong tuner too. You're gonna have to show that strong, reliable, rideable build dyno sheet now. Unless that's just setting up a build that won't look too impressive!

The motor runs just like the curve looks (when it runs that is! )

And don't get your panties in a knot. This is tongue-in-cheek. My form of sarcastic humor. But ya'll can get PO'd cause you think I'm serious. Everything rolls right off these big shoulders! Let the post wars begin!

Hoist!

lol hoist. thick skin and humor mix well!!!! i figured i would get more response outa ya than that. for the record, joe has a reputation of being an excellent tuner. his dyno appears to be happy, but then again i dont know what CF he uses. he is usually in great air up there, so you would expect power. latus is in almost ideal air, they reflect power also. i would have to wait for a dry, cold front in january to see the air they see almost daily.

[Hoist!]

lol hoist. thick skin and humor mix well!!!! i figured i would get more response outa ya than that. for the record, joe has a reputation of being an excellent tuner. his dyno appears to be happy, but then again i dont know what CF he uses. he is usually in great air up there, so you would expect power. latus is in almost ideal air, they reflect power also. i would have to wait for a dry, cold front in january to see the air they see almost daily.

Yeah Dennis, but then everyone would question those huge shoulders, thick skin, and awesome sense of humor!

That great tuning weather is on it's way though man! In a month or 2, it'll only be 90% RH and 85 degF out down there! And make sure you suck them Love Bugs out of the intake before you tune it. They like to eat HP up, besides the paint, I hear

Hoist!

[rednectum]

Certainly you've had people shopping around for mods to ask what ballpark figures (HP/TQ) a build like this would produce. Maybe it's just me, but I would think people would at least want to know what to expect from the money they are spending even if it's a range it will give them something to compare to other mods/kits/builds. I understand that motors are different and what motor "X" gets might not be the same for motor "Y", also don't get hung up overall dyno numbers for the same reasons. Dyno "X" may give you these numbers, but same bike on dyno "Y" may produce different numbers if all conditions (temp/humidity/altitude) are the same.

The fact that Henry doesn't want to give his numbers is up to him, and I don't have a problem w/that. However for those that are looking to do some mods and are comparing money spent to value of the build I would think ballpark figures would be something they would want to know.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

yep, i get those questions all the time. just the other day a dude asked me if i would install a kit that was adverticed to make 120 tq/120 hp. he said it was a bolt on kit to go from 88 inch to 106!!!!!!!!! lol

my usual answer is very conservative if someone is adamant. better to say 1 hp per cubic inch than to spit out numbers that only occur if lightning strikes. most times, i begin the customer interview at that time with "how fast do you want to go? " or " how much power do you want to make?" this leads into what kinda riding they do and then i asked them to describe the fastest build they have ever ridden. the guys and gals on cvo forum are more knowledgeable than most folks on the end of the phone, or the ones that ride up on their softail with stage 1 and short curvy pipes so my answers here reflect that. ( or i at least try to) yall have experienced my inability to communicate via keyboard.

[rednectum]

Yeah Dennis, but then everyone would question those huge shoulders, thick skin, and awesome sense of humor!

That great tuning weather is on it's way though man! In a month or 2, it'll only be 90% RH and 85 degF out down there! And make sure you suck them Love Bugs out of the intake before you tune it. They like to eat HP up, besides the paint, I hear

Hoist!

love bugs---------yuck. never yawn at 100 mph on a bike down here!!!!!!!

right now, 12:12 pm, it is 96 degrees in the shop, 59 % humidity.
my favorite riding weather is on the way. i love those cold mornings ( 65* at 6AM) and warm afternoons ( 86-88* at 8PM). wont be long.

i gotta finish henry, constant stream of bikes going by on way to thunder beach. they gonna overheat engines, destroy tires, burn clutches, and see lots of trinkets they just have to have installed. will be busy next week.

thanks for the love bug reminder--------must pick up more PAM!!!!!!!!!!

[Fired00d]

yep, i get those questions all the time. just the other day a dude asked me if i would install a kit that was adverticed to make 120 tq/120 hp. he said it was a bolt on kit to go from 88 inch to 106!!!!!!!!! lol

my usual answer is very conservative if someone is adamant. better to say 1 hp per cubic inch than to spit out numbers that only occur if lightning strikes. most times, i begin the customer interview at that time with "how fast do you want to go? " or " how much power do you want to make?" this leads into what kinda riding they do and then i asked them to describe the fastest build they have ever ridden. the guys and gals on cvo forum are more knowledgeable than most folks on the end of the phone, or the ones that ride up on their softail with stage 1 and short curvy pipes so my answers here reflect that. ( or i at least try to) yall have experienced my inability to communicate via keyboard.

I'm a big fan of "TQ" and always tell people unless they are flat out drag racing or want to see how fast there bike will go until it will not go any faster then stick w/higher TQ builds. I had someone explain to me a long time ago... TQ is what you feel, and HP is what you get. My days of holding the throttle WFO every chance I get are long gone. In my 24 years of emergency service I've had to scrape parts/body's off the road to many times and I've developed a great respect for what can happen, and happen quickly. I prefer having a bike that will get up an move quickly then one that will run the fastest on top end. I would rather take a five gallon bucket to hell and try to put it out before I'd want to run 150 - 200 mph on a motorcycle.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[REGGAB]

I'm a big fan of "TQ" and always tell people unless they are flat out drag racing or want to see how fast there bike will go until it will not go any faster then stick w/higher TQ builds. I had someone explain to me a long time ago... TQ is what you feel, and HP is what you get. My days of holding the throttle WFO every chance I get are long gone. In my 24 years of emergency service I've had to scrape parts/body's off the road to many times and I've developed a great respect for what can happen, and happen quickly. I prefer having a bike that will get up an move quickly then one that will run the fastest on top end. I would rather take a five gallon bucket to hell and try to put it out before I'd want to run 150 - 200 mph on a motorcycle.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

AMEN!

[djkak]

During disassembly of my motor, I measured crank runout first by removing the crank/cam gears and chain and measuring at the gearshaft - with the cam plate in place - the runout result was .0012.

After removing the cam plate, I remeasured the runout at the gearshaft - and had a result of .0016. 

I then measured the runout again as close to the case as possible, and had a result of .0016.
When I get around to putting this back together, I will again measure runout at the gearshaft (after installing the new cam plate.

Scott

When checking gearshaft runout with the crankshaft supported by its main bearings (assembled), maximum runout will be measured as far to the outside as possible. When checking in a truing stand, the maximum runout will be measured as close to the flywheel as possible.

djkak