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[deucedog]

I've been under the impression MoCo made their big profits from licensing and t-shirts while dealers made theirs from service departments and accessories.
As was repeatedly mentioned a few weeks ago in Knoxville, what other manufacturer could get away with producing an inferior product and then putting out publications marketing some fixes they recommend for an addition cost? 

Very true and quite remarkable, isn't it?  We, including myself, continue to happily drink the Kool-Aid while the dealers and MoCo laugh themselves silly on their way to the bank.  Folks, if you want things to change, we need to stop bleeding Harley Davidson and put a chastity belt on our wallets.  Otherwise, they'll keep doing what they've always done - ship us a "work in progress" instead of a ready-to-ride out of the crate motorcycle

How sad it is that as I sit here waiting to spend nearly $40,0000 for our 08 CVO Ultra to arrive at the dealer, I wonder not what great and far away adventures my wife and I will experience, but rather what pipes and tune I will need to keep my right leg from frying and hope that I won't have to deal with leaking and warping cylinder heads.   And they do it because we continue to let them get away with it year model after year model, plain and simple.

[Hoist!]

If you can be happy with a stock HD, CVO or not, then I agree, they should be more reliable. But if you know that every HD you've had over the years, needed to be modified to your own requirements, it shouldn't be much of a  surprise at all to modify it yourself. All the things you need to do, most will do anyway. The CVO is still a street legal bike. Most want more from them anyway. But I hope no one believes that just because they bought a CVO, that it would be anything more than a fancy regular model. They differentiate it with a bigger motor, but the '07/'08 motors are turning into an embarrassment for them. They're good motors, but need some outside help.

Now, most are getting hung up on the w.....ty thing and feel they need to keep abusing themselves with inferior parts and service to get their money's worth. After 2 years you have no w.....ty left, and are on your own. Make believe you don't have one now, and do what you must to be happy with your bike. If you've done everything right, and the HD chit that's left breaks, you'll still get it fixed under the w.....ty. The more you worry about the w.....ty, or even extend it. The more you get sucked into that vicious system. Set yourself free and do what you want. If you like the bike, and then use the best parts, which probably won't be HD, and use a good shop for your work, they'll start getting the message.

I've loved the bike from day one and got frustrated with the BS problems and Service from my dealer. I finally decided to do things my way, and got lucky and found what appears to be a very capable, caring dealer. But the moment I went that route, I started feeling so much better about everything. Now my bike runs great, and time will tell if my theory holds true. But I'm pretty confident it will. I still worry about the bottom end, but I'll get that under w.....ty, and fix that right to before it goes back in the bike, if it breaks. Now my bike runs the way it should. They provided the foundation. Nothing more. I made it mine. Keep dealing with their system and keep getting disappointed. It's like beating your head against the wall. It feels good when you stop!

FTF & FTW!

Hoist!

[deucedog]

They differentiate it with a bigger motor, but the '07/'08 motors are turning into an embarrassment for them. They're good motors, but need some outside help.

Hoist!

And Hoist, and you correctly point out the greatest concern.  The question on everyone's mind is just how much work (translation: money) are they going to need to ensure ongoing reliability and removal from the "embarrassment" column?

[Hoist!]

And Hoist, and you correctly point out the greatest concern.  The question on everyone's mind is just how much work (translation: money) are they going to need to ensure ongoing reliability and removal from the "embarrassment" column?

The engine alone, w/ exhaust , A/C, real tuning, 2 grand. A real nice performance engine, w/racing quality parts, 5 grand in parts alone. Smile on your face when you're done, PRICELESS!

Hoist!

[SirMichael]

The engine alone, w/ exhaust , A/C, real tuning, 2 grand. A real nice performance engine, w/racing quality parts, 5 grand in parts alone. Smile on your face when you're done, PRICELESS!

Hoist!

Nicely said
 
                          Drinks are on me Hoist,
                                                          MIKE

[Hoist!]

Nicely said
 
                          Drinks are on me Hoist,
                                                          MIKE

Too bad I can't take you up on that in HS Mike. Wish you were going. I'm looking forward to meeting the Sir Michael/Tommyo duo. What a team. You guys crack me up. With a friend like you, Tommyo has no worries while he's going thru his chit! He should be more worried about us! We'll make him more broke than she will!

Hoist!

[SirMichael]

Too bad I can't take you up on that in HS Mike. Wish you were going. I'm looking forward to meeting the Sir Michael/Tommyo duo. What a team. You guys crack me up. With a friend like you, Tommyo has no worries while he's going thru his chit! He should be more worried about us! We'll make him more broke than she will!

Hoist!

Yah, he has no problem spending all my $$$$, My wife wants to know where I keep getting all these Ideas and why they cost so much always, I keep telling her that it's Tommys fault!! Now I try to tell her that you guys have all the expensive ideas, it's not just Tommy anymore 

                                               MIKE

[Hoist!]

Yah, he has no problem spending all my $$$$, My wife wants to know where I keep getting all these Ideas and why they cost so much always, I keep telling her that it's Tommys fault!! Now I try to tell her that you guys have all the expensive ideas, it's not just Tommy anymore 

                                               MIKE

Just blame me Mike! I'll take the bullet!

Hoist!

[SirMichael]

Just blame me Mike! I'll take the bullet!

Hoist!

Shes not looking to shoot anyone yet She enjoys the ride as much as we do, I just have to explain sometimes why we really need things, like how important it is to have a 103, you know stuff like that

                                                            MIKE

[Hoist!]

Shes not looking to shoot anyone yet She enjoys the ride as much as we do, I just have to explain sometimes why we really need things, like how important it is to have a 103, you know stuff like that

                                                            MIKE

That's simple. Just explain that everything you're doing is for her safety and comfort! Right Binx!

Hoist!

[skreminegul07]

I've spoke to the GM at the dealer several times and he states that most money is made in sales over parts, service, and clothes.

[grc]

----------
"Harley's US retail sales have fallen for two consecutive quarters for the first time since the early 1990s. Mr Ziemer expects the market to remain difficult in 2008.

Nonetheless, he indicated that Harley would take a cautious approach to price-cutting. "We're going to make sure that we protect the brand," he said. "We need to work with our dealers to make sure that the market is not over-supplied." Shipments to dealers are expected to be lower than retail sales this year."

----------
Notice that he didn't mention anything about protecting the consumer.  Got to maintain those high prices to keep the dealer's happy, but that means of course that they will sell fewer units.  Wonder what econ 101 class he took flunked? 

Trust me, if things go as I believe they will (at the very least a short term recession), the story will change.  When it starts seriously affecting share price and executive compensation, that "protect the brand" crap will go out the window.  Now that H-D has increased their production capacity and their fixed costs, they need the volume to maintain profitability.  I don't believe the export market can absorb the volume difference.  Thinking about that did bring a smile, however, when I pictured a big bunch of Chinese folks on Harley's, all sitting on the side of the road waiting for repairs to the substandard parts they provide to the MoCo. 

Jerry

[skreminegul07]

----------
"Harley's US retail sales have fallen for two consecutive quarters for the first time since the early 1990s. Mr Ziemer expects the market to remain difficult in 2008.

Nonetheless, he indicated that Harley would take a cautious approach to price-cutting. "We're going to make sure that we protect the brand," he said. "We need to work with our dealers to make sure that the market is not over-supplied." Shipments to dealers are expected to be lower than retail sales this year."

----------
Notice that he didn't mention anything about protecting the consumer.  Got to maintain those high prices to keep the dealer's happy, but that means of course that they will sell fewer units.  Wonder what econ 101 class he took flunked? 

Trust me, if things go as I believe they will (at the very least a short term recession), the story will change.  When it starts seriously affecting share price and executive compensation, that "protect the brand" crap will go out the window.  Now that H-D has increased their production capacity and their fixed costs, they need the volume to maintain profitability.  I don't believe the export market can absorb the volume difference.  Thinking about that did bring a smile, however, when I pictured a big bunch of Chinese folks on Harley's, all sitting on the side of the road waiting for repairs to the substandard parts they provide to the MoCo. 

Jerry

LOL!  Twenty people probably perched on a harley when the 110 locks up!

Cut more costs!  More chit parts!

[beerman]

All we need now is a recall on an important safety feature like......oh....ABS for instance.........

[Midnight Rider]

Just for persepective, BMW (motorcycles) introduced ABS as standard equipment in 1986. It's hard to regard Harley as "innovative" when they're so far behind the curve.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lock_brakes


Yamaha put throttle by wire into production in 2006, so Harley's more current on that one, but they're hardly the industry leader.

http://www.mcnews.com.au/NewBikeCatalogue/2006/yamaha/yzf-r6/throttle.htm


Harley has never relied on innovative engineering to sell bikes.  They always knew that the HD crowd would buy HD and nothing else, regardless of current technology.  Nothing wrong with that, IMO, I just wish they'd execute the old technology better.  I mean, why in the heck are we still watching HD make $30K bikes with oil leaks and peeling chrome, for crying out loud?

I really wonder if coming generations of buyers, accustomed to high quality vehicles, will put up with it?

In my opinion, no!!  They might buy ONE, but if it gives the kinds of problems that cannot be considered "normal" for most vehicles, it will be their last one.