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Author Topic: 110 Cylinder Liner Movement  (Read 14272 times)

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HogBreath

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Re: 110 Cylinder Liner Movement
« Reply #30 on: October 26, 2007, 08:03:09 AM »

I'm thinking...these guys were smarter in the first grade than most of us are now.
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Gunn Runner

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Re: 110 Cylinder Liner Movement
« Reply #31 on: October 26, 2007, 08:09:14 AM »

Hey djkak.....my rear cylinder was pulled last Thursday......liner slippage found and failure of head gasket.  MOCo has me on a list for back-order new cylinder.......and I've heard it takes several weeks to get parts due to high demand for replacement jugs......thanks for all the techno stuff.......when my Wife found out I was getting new jugs, she wanted a set also.......but I couldn't find a set of 38-Ds in the parts catalog ! ::)
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Re: 110 Cylinder Liner Movement
« Reply #32 on: October 26, 2007, 09:05:18 AM »

Hey djkak.....my rear cylinder was pulled last Thursday......liner slippage found and failure of head gasket.  MOCo has me on a list for back-order new cylinder.......and I've heard it takes several weeks to get parts due to high demand for replacement jugs......thanks for all the techno stuff.......when my Wife found out I was getting new jugs, she wanted a set also.......but I couldn't find a set of 38-Ds in the parts catalog ! ::)

Do you know if that means new design, part number, etc?  How will you know if it will be any better?  Have you opened up a customer service ticket?
Are they changing both cylinders?  Do you want a motor half new?  They will if you demand it.  Do it now cause you will wait once again for the second cylinder to be ordered.  Also make them check crank runout before you go through all this.  It's mostly appart right now, why wait?  If it's out of spec, you get a new motor.
What I am suggesting is exactly what I did and said and I got a new motor. 

PM me if you want to discuss this some more.
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Gunn Runner

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Re: 110 Cylinder Liner Movement
« Reply #33 on: October 26, 2007, 09:57:16 AM »

Ticket number issued by MoCo....MoCo has authorized replacement of back cylinder only....crank run out checked OK.....no signs of front cylinder leaking.......slippage documented on back cylinder .....dealer and MoCo are on same page.....I have an outstanding service manager and 15 year engine mechanic at Manatee Harley - Bradenton FL....top notch guys who build and re-build engines.....we're keeping good records..........they know their stuff.........l.........I'm good with the new back cylinder for now......if it happens again or I have the front cylinder fail, then me, the dealership and MoCo will discuss new engine or new bike.  ;)
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Keith_H

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Re: 110 Cylinder Liner Movement
« Reply #34 on: October 26, 2007, 10:59:59 AM »

Not sure about this back order deal on the jugs. Shop ordered new jugs for mine last week and they came in 4 to 5 days. Is the back order for a new style of jug? Don't know, lack of open honesty by HD is some of the problem. Shop installed the new jugs that came in (same part number as the original ones) and took the bike for a couple of test rides. At the 50 mile point the new jugs started to leak again. They call HD and the HD tech rep came into the shop to look at it the next day, Wed. He had the shop tear it down and reinstall with new gaskets again but this time the shop was told to use this different bonding glue when they put it back together. I'm not much of a wrench but installing the same kind of jugs that have a problem to fix the problem didn't seem right to me but the shop is at the mercy of the HD reps to do what they direct. Now using "super glue" to fix the problem is even more suspect then the other solution. My take- there are 2 other 110 motors torn apart in my shop alone. A guy I ride with has one and his is leaking. That makes 4 in just my area that I have seen myself. This doesn't even include the fact that this is the second time for mine and one of the others that I know of. I have to believe HD knows they have a big problem with the jugs alone but either doesn't have the fix figured out yet or have it manufactured to distrubute yet and is just trying to bandaide the problem and get folks back on the road for another 3000 to 5000 miles till they get this worked out. The absolute only reasons i'm not jumping through my skin is that I love the bike and wouldn't trade it for the world, I have a Low Rider to ride during the Ultra's down time and the shop is a great bunch of guys that are doing everything they can to make this right. The situation is the pits but what can you do.
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Chief

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Re: 110 Cylinder Liner Movement
« Reply #35 on: October 26, 2007, 11:10:10 AM »

He had the shop tear it down and reinstall with new gaskets again but this time the shop was told to use this different bonding glue when they put it back together.

Copper Coat?

:indian_chief:
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Keith_H

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Re: 110 Cylinder Liner Movement
« Reply #36 on: October 26, 2007, 11:12:56 AM »

That sounds right but i think i was so taken back by the "super glue" thought running through my head I can't say for sure.
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Hoist!

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Re: 110 Cylinder Liner Movement
« Reply #37 on: October 26, 2007, 12:46:46 PM »

Not sure about this back order deal on the jugs. Shop ordered new jugs for mine last week and they came in 4 to 5 days. Is the back order for a new style of jug? Don't know, lack of open honesty by HD is some of the problem. Shop installed the new jugs that came in (same part number as the original ones) and took the bike for a couple of test rides. At the 50 mile point the new jugs started to leak again. They call HD and the HD tech rep came into the shop to look at it the next day, Wed. He had the shop tear it down and reinstall with new gaskets again but this time the shop was told to use this different bonding glue when they put it back together. I'm not much of a wrench but installing the same kind of jugs that have a problem to fix the problem didn't seem right to me but the shop is at the mercy of the HD reps to do what they direct. Now using "super glue" to fix the problem is even more suspect then the other solution. My take- there are 2 other 110 motors torn apart in my shop alone. A guy I ride with has one and his is leaking. That makes 4 in just my area that I have seen myself. This doesn't even include the fact that this is the second time for mine and one of the others that I know of. I have to believe HD knows they have a big problem with the jugs alone but either doesn't have the fix figured out yet or have it manufactured to distrubute yet and is just trying to bandaide the problem and get folks back on the road for another 3000 to 5000 miles till they get this worked out. The absolute only reasons i'm not jumping through my skin is that I love the bike and wouldn't trade it for the world, I have a Low Rider to ride during the Ultra's down time and the shop is a great bunch of guys that are doing everything they can to make this right. The situation is the pits but what can you do.

 :nixweiss: :nixweiss: :nixweiss:

Glue??? There's not supposed to be glue for sealing Head Gaskets! The gasket design and the torquing of the heads should provide all the seal you need with this design. That is if they designed it right in the first place. I hope they are referring to using a Base Gaket and Gasket-Cinch to seal the base, instead of the O-Ring. Otherwise, I'm scared for you buddy! Get a second opinion if that's the case! :o

Hoist! 8)
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SE08RK

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Re: 110 Cylinder Liner Movement
« Reply #38 on: October 26, 2007, 01:02:48 PM »

Copper coat gasket sealer (to name one similar) should not be used with an aluminum assembly due to the galvanic corrosion that will occur. This will cause large pits to be corroded from the surfaces of aluminum as I'm sure some of you have encountered. Normally where a gasket contacts an aluminum surface, Teflon or some other inert material is used.
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grc

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Re: 110 Cylinder Liner Movement
« Reply #39 on: October 26, 2007, 07:34:00 PM »

Perhaps it's time for H-D to consider the alternatives to their cast aluminum & iron sleeve parts.  Chrome plated aluminum bores have been around for decades (had them on my first two bikes in the 60's).  There is also Nikasil, or just high silicon carbide content aluminum alloys.  Many Japanese bikes utilize coated aluminum bores, as do some marine engines (ie. Mercury), and there have been more than a few in auto's as well (BMW, Jaguar, GM, etc).  As with all things in life, there are trade-offs involved.  But at least you wouldn't have to worry about sleeve creep, and the heat dissipation would be greatly improved as well.  The following article describes a new process developed by Yamaha in 2002 that shows a great deal of promise:  
http://www.yamaha-motor.co.jp/global/news/2002/07/31/innovation.html


Jerry
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djkak

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Re: 110 Cylinder Liner Movement
« Reply #40 on: October 26, 2007, 09:46:55 PM »

You are a thinker and you are also thinking into the future just a bit. NASA is right now in the process of setting up metallurgy experiments....

This laboratory where I work is involved in some of these studies and experiments as well. This lab has an accelerator that is one of the worlds only continuous electron beams - studies of matter down to quarks and their adhesion. The main ongoing research is into the area of "what is holding molecules and their sub parts together" or "what is the glue that is holding matter together"? (as soon as they know, teleportation will become a reality - "beam me up Scotty"). To go a little farther, I'm involved with the fabrication of the niobium cells....

Hoping not to bore you with a lot of detail, we have experimented with a bond of aluminum and different alloys of steel. They act like oil and water an will bond or mix to an extent but there always remains a junction boundary line that will separate when the article is subjected to a temperature change......

Some of the physicists at this lab could use these 'ideas' that folks think about and also would benefit with the 'is possible' attitude that some of us have. Science fiction becomes science fact when scientists forget about what they conceive as impossible.

I guess until there is a better way developed to join iron and aluminum, we will have to depend on some engineers' conception of a well designed 'spiny lock' and strive to prevent the joint from becoming a rattling, slipping and leaking mess. 

First of all, thank you very much for indulging me with this. This kind of interaction stimulates, entertains and provokes thought in interested readers. I hope that you enjoy the benefits of this exchange as much as I do.

My interest in this subject is driven by my long awareness of the somewhat fragile nature of the steel or iron union with aluminum. The desire to predict, with some reasonable degree of accuracy, the serviceability of select components relative to their expected life cycle drives my curiosity as well.

As you mentioned earlier, casting iron and steel into aluminum is commonly done; although more common in earlier H-D machinery than it is today. Prior to 1984 the cylinders were iron, but from ’48 through ’83, the Big Twin heads required steel inserts cast in for the head bolts. Early pistons had a steel strut cast into the skirt to control expansion. These were run in many models through 1982; the ’83 Shovel’s ran a Mahle piston which did not utilize the strut. The 4 speed BT transmission case had a single threaded insert cast into it, which was used to secure the right side of the housing to a frame tab. The breather trap in the early crankcases utilized a short pipe cast into the crankcase. Prior to 1990, the left and right main bearings were pressed into steel inserts which were cast into the crankcase, and the list goes on.

The example of the left main bearing insert in the previous post was offered because of its relevance. During the time that these inserts were cast into the crankcase, no union of this type used anywhere in the powertrain was more apt to fail than this one.

The attached photo allows us to take a trip back in time while we wait for the bugs to be completely worked out of the teleportation chamber. :)

The piston is ’37 to ’48, 74-Sidevalve. The cast in strut was used through 1982 on the Big Twin engines. The cylinder head inserts circa 1950 Panhead. Milwaukee took a very optimistic approach back then by presenting a large footprint flush with the gasket surface. Shovelhead inserts had a much smaller footprint and sometime around the middle ‘70’s Milwaukee finally recessed the inserts below the gasket surface. The left main insert pictured in the two bottom slots, is no longer flush with the crankcase material as it was when the crankcase was originally manufactured. This failure would be considered substantial. The oil passage visible in the lower left photo feeds the left main bearing. Engine oil must pass directly through the steel and aluminum joint at this point.

When the smoke clears at the end of the day, the presence or absence of a metallurgical bond between these specific components isn’t important; the union is what it is; whatever it is; :) having said that, I can’t shake this nagging sense of the existence of a bond between the steel or iron and aluminum.

The manufacturing issue mentioned in my previous post is referred to as “die soldering” (google it). There is a great deal of information available on the web regarding this phenomenon. If die soldering occurs between these dissimilar materials when not desired, what prevents this reaction to be used effectively in a controlled environment to strengthen the joining of steel and aluminum?

Thanks again SE08RK.

djkak
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rednectum

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Re: 110 Cylinder Liner Movement
« Reply #41 on: October 26, 2007, 10:23:31 PM »

man, this has become my favorite prime-time show!! please dont let the season end--------------------------------------------
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djkak

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Re: 110 Cylinder Liner Movement
« Reply #42 on: October 26, 2007, 11:05:47 PM »

Hey djkak.....my rear cylinder was pulled last Thursday......liner slippage found and failure of head gasket.  MOCo has me on a list for back-order new cylinder.......and I've heard it takes several weeks to get parts due to high demand for replacement jugs......thanks for all the techno stuff.......when my Wife found out I was getting new jugs, she wanted a set also.......but I couldn't find a set of 38-Ds in the parts catalog ! ::)

Did you get a chance to inspect the cylinder for yourself?

I might be able to come up with a set of 38 D’s but it would involve several “fittings” to get them adjusted....or not!! :)
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Hoist!

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Re: 110 Cylinder Liner Movement
« Reply #43 on: October 26, 2007, 11:36:52 PM »

Question please:

Why did we never hear about this on Porches or VW's? What do the Germans know about this that we don't? Why did HD have to go to Porsche to save their asses with the Evo? WTF are they really missing on these 110's? :confused5:

Thanks for indulging my obvious inferior knowledge on this subject.

Hoist! 8)
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SE08RK

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Re: 110 Cylinder Liner Movement
« Reply #44 on: October 27, 2007, 07:58:23 AM »



The manufacturing issue mentioned in my previous post is referred to as “die soldering” (google it). There is a great deal of information available on the web regarding this phenomenon. If die soldering occurs between these dissimilar materials when not desired, what prevents this reaction to be used effectively in a controlled environment to strengthen the joining of steel and aluminum?

Thanks again SE08RK.

djkak

djkak,

As long as the temperature isn't increased or decreased enough that the difference in the coefficient of expansion between the two metals isn't that great, the joint will remain very mechanical. Otherwise the two materials will stress toward the lessor expansive metal to the point that the junction is lost and a separation becomes very evident. From that extreme, the junction is totally lost because of the loss of thermal conductivity to equalize the temperature between the two.

Yes, Zolner, steel reinforced pistons have been around for decades and they are a very good example of utilizing a physical cross section of unequal thermal expansive materials to find an equilibrium. But, if you fracture the piston into pieces, it can readily be seen that the junction is purely mechanical. As with the bearing race inserts and thread inserts where in both cases the teeth or keying method is visible.

A welder friend of mine was working to fabricate a clutch cable bracket to be fastened to his HD four speed transmission case years ago. He hurriedly made a small bracket out of mild steel to suit his needs not realizing or thinking about what the material was and then proceeded to weld it onto the case. We were all amazed when we realized what he had done! The bracket was so well attached that it would ring when struck lightly with a metallic object like a small wrench. The joint was messy with aluminum snotted around the piece if steel but it was actually welded in place - but unfortunately, it failed in use. He reverted back to the old D&D clutch bracket. So, without having the knowledge or thought that it could not be done, he did it and that's why I say that we cannot have a closed mind about this stuff. I never found out if he used any sort of flux with the welding (TIG) and assumed that he didn't using the inert gas process, but if he used some kind of cleaning agent or flux, he may have hit on a substantial advance in welding....

Apparently, if the piece of iron is preheated to the molten temperature of the aluminum alloy being cast and injected, and the entire casting is allowed to cool very uniformly and slowly, the joint can be called something more than mechanical. The two materials must remain in absolute intimate contact so that a temperature change is maintained equally between the two. Then the dissimilar metal joint is good. This type of control is expensive as is any heat related treatment to a metal, but the benefits are worth the addition. These cylinders again, must have a flaw in either their key design or they were not treated properly during the casting process., and once the junction loses its intimate contact, the degrade in mechanical joint increases greatly - the junction reveals itself as purely mechanical. Thus these HD 'sleeved' cylinders slipping.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

Thanks to you too djkak! Nice chat!

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