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[Hoist!]

Well I've been talking with a lot of engine builders. It has been quite an education. I am now certain I don't no chit about motors!    While Tman makes outstanding stuff, I have decided not to use him as the low end torque comes on around 3000 rpm. I have decided against going to a 117/124 build. Would probably add to my problems, leaking rear head gasket at under 3700 miles. Finally, I decided there is no need for me to go to a gear drive cam with the new chain system based on all the builders I have talked to. So I am looking at two additional options:


Option 5: Cycle Rama 110 cu motor
Cycle Rama (CR) head work on 110 SE Heads w/ACR's
Stock 110 pistons
CR 595 special grind cam - available in approx two weeks / kicks in around 2000 - 2200 rpm
CR head polished SE 58mm TB
SE Roller Rockers
SE Adjustable Pushrod
SE Rocker Arm Support
SE Cylinder Studs
Clearance Rocker Boxes & Cam Chest
Upgrade clutch springs
Chrome Billet Aluminum Covers (gotta have something chrome) 

Note: Wes really likes the stock heads after polish and clean up. He also likes the ACRs. They have written instructions on installation procedures that has stopped head gasket leaks to date. He recommends I leave the bottom alone unless I have a runout problem which I can address under warranty at that time.

Both Wes and Steve have been great to talk to and learn from. I do not think I can make a wrong decision here. A little more research, make the decision, and trailer the scoot to Gutterridge to get her done.

Oh ya, and paint up the hard bags and mount em.

JW

BD, I have a similar CR package to the one you're considering. It's a very rideable setup, with good power from 2000. But that cam really kicks in good at over 3000 RPM. With 100 ft-lbs at 2000, you won't care where the cam kicks in. So don't let the cam profile scare you. Look at overall projected numbers/curve.

I'd stay away from the SE Cyl Studs. These are not shouldered studs. Someone could destroy your cases misinstalling them. Feuling makes High Tensile Shouldered Studs with ARP Polished Headbolts.

Also, if you're staying with the chain drive cams, I'd consider using the new SE camplate or the R&R camplate.

You'll need to run a good free flowing intak and exhaust with this setup too.

Overall, I think you'll be very happy with the CR package. Can't speak about the others, as I've never used them. But my 110" CR package ran great. It should run even better when I'm done with it this time around. Good luck!

Hoist!

[SBB]

Silver-Black
These are the numbers supplied by TR on the package he helped set up. He told me he does not like the 110 heads on a 110. He thinks they work great on 120s and bigger. He could do better with other heads but not with the current ones. I am trying to keep the stock appearance. He was great to talk with and the man knows his stuff. In now way am I saying anything about TR or his products. He was very straight with me. If I build up my 95, he is on the list of those to call. I was not trying to make a general statement about Tman's stuff not making good low end torque. Sorry if it came across like that. I have seen Tman packages built at Gutterridge HD that are torque monsters.

JW

Good luck on your build!
But hurry up.
I get bored real easy and I think every man (and my wife) should have more horsepower!

 

[happyman]

Blackdiamond,
Are you saying wes has a way to cure the blown head gasket issue on some  110"??     i never have had a problem but  there are a bunch of  owners out there that would be happy to see that too.         i have to think the cometic  hg  would be a good step in the right direction. or ya coud do a set of heads  and install the  manual  compression releases. and then use then too. i tend to think its a matter of  too much heat  and bad gaskets so if you get rid of the heat  and try a differant gasket  you may be ok.  one thing i am no expert , so someone else will have to  come up with a solution for  the issue.       

                                   Happy

Well I've been talking with a lot of engine builders. It has been quite an education. I am now certain I don't no chit about motors!    While Tman makes outstanding stuff, I have decided not to use him as the low end torque comes on around 3000 rpm. I have decided against going to a 117/124 build. Would probably add to my problems, leaking rear head gasket at under 3700 miles. Finally, I decided there is no need for me to go to a gear drive cam with the new chain system based on all the builders I have talked to. So I am looking at two additional options:


Option 4: GMRPerformance 110 cu motor
GMR head work on 110 SE Heads w/ACR's
Stock 110 pistons
SE 251 cam
GMR clean up on stock 50mm TB or SE 58mm TB
SE Roller Rockers
SE Adjustable Pushrod
SE Rocker Arm Support
SE Cylinder Studs
Clearance Rocker Boxes & Cam Chest
Upgrade clutch springs
Chrome Billet Aluminum Covers (gotta have something chrome)

Note: Steve/GMR welds the heads up to fix the gasket leak issue. He also likes / recommends staying with the ACRs.


Option 5: Cycle Rama 110 cu motor
Cycle Rama (CR) head work on 110 SE Heads w/ACR's
Stock 110 pistons
CR 595 special grind cam - available in approx two weeks / kicks in around 2000 - 2200 rpm
CR head polished SE 58mm TB
SE Roller Rockers
SE Adjustable Pushrod
SE Rocker Arm Support
SE Cylinder Studs
Clearance Rocker Boxes & Cam Chest
Upgrade clutch springs
Chrome Billet Aluminum Covers (gotta have something chrome) 

Note: Wes really likes the stock heads after polish and clean up. He also likes the ACRs. They have written instructions on installation procedures that has stopped head gasket leaks to date. He recommends I leave the bottom alone unless I have a runout problem which I can address under warranty at that time.

Both Wes and Steve have been great to talk to and learn from. I do not think I can make a wrong decision here. A little more research, make the decision, and trailer the scoot to Gutterridge to get her done.

Oh ya, and paint up the hard bags and mount em.

JW

[Black Diamond]

Howie

Some of the build components are listed in the first post. The SE cam plate is going to be used with the stock oil pump. Thanks for the heads up on the cylinder studs. I've talked with Harry and Scott about their CR build also. Your posted torque curve is really sweet. Wes really likes the Rinehart True Duals which I already have. We talked about the proper way to tune for them. Thanks for the info when I called you. Good luck with Cybil for 08.


S/B  
I hear ya.  I wish it was done and the ice was melted.


Happy
Wes said he will be supplying written instructions to my HD guys on the build. Apparently he has developed a way to do the install that eliminates the head gasket leak problem. He said they have not had a leak yet. When I get details, I'll post more. Wes likes the ACRs. He recommends I leave them in. So did Steve (GMR) so they stay. Both said their build will make the bike run significantly cooler which helps eliminate the problem.  Mine sprung a rear head gasket leak at 3673 miles.

JW

[happyman]

            silverblack,
so your making a lot of hp and tq way down low?    you ahve a  jims 120?  and what is the cam your running  and headwork??
Thanks                                  Happy

Good luck on your build!
But hurry up.
I get bored real easy and I think every man (and my wife) should have more horsepower!

 

[Black Diamond]

Latest:
I took my scooter in Saturday for the build to start. I decided on the Wes Brown Cycle Rama package based on the new grind for the CR 595. If all goes as hoped, she'll hit the butt dyno very early on.

CR 110 ci motor
Cycle Rama (CR) head work on 110 SE Heads w/ACR's
Performance gasket kit
Stock 110 pistons w/sets custom rings , with napier 2nd rings
CR 595 special grind cam - kicks in with 100 ft tq at around 2000 rpm
SE Cam Support Plate
Torrington cam bearings
Check Crank runout - if problem split the cases, Hobin Bros trued and balanced / Timken bearings
CR cleaned / polished SE 58mm throttle body w/ Pro A/C Breather kit
SE Roller Rockers
CR Performance lifters
SE Adjustable chromoly pushrods p/n 17900-87
SE Rocker Arm Support
SE Cylinder Studs
Clearance Rocker Boxes & Cam Chest
Upgrade clutch AIM springs
Chrome Billet Aluminum Covers

I may diamond cut heads and cylinders. Awaiting outcome of tear down to see if the weeping on the rear jug is just a rear gasket problem or a cylinder problem.

JW

[sadunbar]

Latest:
I took my scooter in Saturday for the build to start. I decided on the Wes Brown Cycle Rama package based on the new grind for the CR 595. If all goes as hoped, she'll hit the butt dyno very early on.

CR 110 ci motor
Cycle Rama (CR) head work on 110 SE Heads w/ACR's
Performance gasket kit
Stock 110 pistons w/sets custom rings , with napier 2nd rings
CR 595 special grind cam - kicks in with 100 ft tq at around 2000 rpm
SE Cam Support Plate
Torrington cam bearings
Check Crank runout - if problem split the cases, Hobin Bros trued and balanced / Timken bearings
CR cleaned / polished SE 58mm throttle body w/ Pro A/C Breather kit
SE Roller Rockers
CR Performance lifters
SE Adjustable chromoly pushrods p/n 17900-87
SE Rocker Arm Support
SE Cylinder Studs
Clearance Rocker Boxes & Cam Chest
Upgrade clutch AIM springs
Chrome Billet Aluminum Covers

I may diamond cut heads and cylinders. Awaiting outcome of tear down to see if the weeping on the rear jug is just a rear gasket problem or a cylinder problem.

JW

Who is doing your build and tune?

[Black Diamond]

Scott

Gutterridge Harley in Danville, Ill. They have a number of Tman builds under their belts with excellent results. This will be new ground for them. They are pretty good on a tune with Rinehart TD which I'm running.

Thanks for your info earlier in this build.

JW

[happyman]

                   Blackdiamond.
So do you have some specs on the cr cam..   it must have a early valve close.your making 100 ft lbs at 2000 thats a pretty fair for the bagger crowd.What kind of compression is this build going to have? and what  are you looking for on hp and tq. what is the  headwork made up of.. not familar with the rings. the 58 throttle body  is something that suprises me.    just curious here and am always looking at differant things on these  110" motors . i take it your staying with the chain drive cams too?     anyway  sounds like your  going to be looking forward to a fun summer..
                                                  Happy

Latest:
I took my scooter in Saturday for the build to start. I decided on the Wes Brown Cycle Rama package based on the new grind for the CR 595. If all goes as hoped, she'll hit the butt dyno very early on.

CR 110 ci motor
Cycle Rama (CR) head work on 110 SE Heads w/ACR's
Performance gasket kit
Stock 110 pistons w/sets custom rings , with napier 2nd rings
CR 595 special grind cam - kicks in with 100 ft tq at around 2000 rpm
SE Cam Support Plate
Torrington cam bearings
Check Crank runout - if problem split the cases, Hobin Bros trued and balanced / Timken bearings
CR cleaned / polished SE 58mm throttle body w/ Pro A/C Breather kit
SE Roller Rockers
CR Performance lifters
SE Adjustable chromoly pushrods p/n 17900-87
SE Rocker Arm Support
SE Cylinder Studs
Clearance Rocker Boxes & Cam Chest
Upgrade clutch AIM springs
Chrome Billet Aluminum Covers

I may diamond cut heads and cylinders. Awaiting outcome of tear down to see if the weeping on the rear jug is just a rear gasket problem or a cylinder problem.

JW

[Black Diamond]

Merry Christmas Happy

The current Cam spec's are
Intake opens @ 20     closes @ 42             .595 lift       242 duration        101 Lobe Center
Exhaust opens @ 50   closes @ 12             .595 lift      242 duration         109 Lobe Center
32 degree over lap    105 LSA

Wes is refining the grind slightly to have the torque come on earlier. When I get the new numbers I'll pass them along.

Compression 9.5 / 10 to 1

Heads - Port & polish, Multi angle valve job on intakes, radius angle valve job on exhaust. Set valve to valve & seal to retainer clearance, set installed valve spring height, CC chambers, Mill heads. Flow test & Velocity probe ports

The 58mm throttle body is the only upgrade currently available for the new 08 electronic throttle control system.

Can't help you on the rings. I just ride em but I'm trying to learn.

Hope this helps

JW

[Hoist!]

I hope you're comfortable with HD doing this work BD. I originally had a similar CR package installed by a HD dealer and the whole thing turned to chit. Bike ran awesome, but didn't hold up due to bad installation. Clearance pistons??? I was screwed! They don't have all the necessary tools to build this motor. They think you can just bolt off the shelf parts on to make it work. Be careful using a dealer BD. My new CR pacakage is going up another level now. But there's no way in hell a dealer's ever touching my bike again!

Hoist!

[110tHunDer]

Scott

Gutterridge Harley in Danville, Ill. They have a number of Tman builds under their belts with excellent results. This will be new ground for them. They are pretty good on a tune with Rinehart TD which I'm running.

Thanks for your info earlier in this build.

JW

Hey, JW, next time you're passing through and have a few minutes, give me a shout.  I live in Mahomet, so you're passing right by here to go to Danville.  I'd even meet you over there if you make a run to check on your bike!

Gutteridge may have experience with other builds, but sounds like pumping up the 110 is new to them?  Are they aware of the issues with the cylinders?  Or are they one of the dealers who hasn't seen any problems with these motors.

Just be careful and thorough, man.  You don't want to end up throwing good money after bad.

[sadunbar]

I hope you're comfortable with HD doing this work BD. I originally had a similar CR package installed by a HD dealer and the whole thing turned to chit. Bike ran awesome, but didn't hold up due to bad installation. Clearance pistons??? I was screwed! They don't have all the necessary tools to build this motor. They think you can just bolt off the shelf parts on to make it work. Be careful using a dealer BD. My new CR pacakage is going up another level now. But there's no way in hell a dealer's ever touching my bike again!

Hoist!

Howie,

  I installed my pistons yesterday - and did not have to clearance them.  They got em right...  

Scott

[Black Diamond]

103tHunDer

I'll hit you up on one of my trips. It will be great to meet you.

Roger and Kevin (Gutterridge HD) know about some of the 110 problems. They have done a couple of 110's with Tman stuff. Their customers are very happy with them but the guys think there is more to be had. I am very comfortable with them doing this build. They have done nothing but treat me right. What they say they can do they deliver.

They are the guys that brought up the cam support plate as well as checking the crank runout. There about 50/50 on welding up the crank and doing Timken bearing now verse later. Wes cast the deciding vote. They tell it like it is with no BS. Wes is comfortable they can handle the job.

They received a Tman package for a build only to discover both pistons were for the front cylinder. The contacted TR who immediately check his remaining 7 out of 10 packages. All were delivered that way. Only Gutterridge HD identified the problem and had it corrected. TR told Gutterridge the remaining two packages were installed as delivered to other shops. They did not notice the difference.

JW

[Black Diamond]

Looks like I'll be getting a new rear cylinder. The sleeve/liner moved causing the gasket leak.  The service a number of 110 cii motors. Lucky me, I'm the only one experiencing problems.

My guys are recommending I consider going with Axtell jugs to eliminate the problem in the future.

Why can't a Harley use Harley parts?

JW