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[sadunbar]

This is why I am relying on the advice of this group. I'm out on a limb when it comes to looking this deep into a motor but I would guess that it should not look this way.

Well, yeah - it should not look that way.

Everyone who experiences this problem has to decide what they are comfortable doing...as there are obviously lots of options.  If you trust your MOCO dealer, let them fix it again.

Personally, once was enough for me and I replaced all the suspect parts with better aftermarket parts.

Given this is your third experience - unless something is done differently then the last two times - it will likely happen again.

At minimum, if it were me, I would ask your dealer to use aftermarket cylinders - like Axtell.  Black Diamond 110 is doing this now, along with some other aftermarket alternate parts.

What you are going thru is exactly what I tried to avoid by replacing virtually every possible suspect part with better aftermarket parts.

Sorry you are having to deal with this and Good Luck...

[Fired00d]

If they strip the heads and protect the seats and gasket surface, they can bead blast them and clean the carbon build up...

Thanks. You think the MoCo would be concerned (warranty) that? What would be the pro's/con's concerning having it done? Is there any other long term way of getting rid of it (gas treatments, etc)?

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[sadunbar]

Thanks. You think the MoCo would be concerned (warranty) that? What would be the pro's/con's concerning having it done? Is there any other long term way of getting rid of it (gas treatments, etc)?

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

I cannot imagine MOCO having any concerns with this as long as the seats and gaskets surfaces are protected.  There is not really any downside.  I sure would not bolt the heads back on without cleaning that mess off the heads.  I imagine the pistons are equally ugly.  I''d be concerned about the rings and the cylinders also...  But, I am pretty conservative about these things.

[hard10]

Thanks. You think the MoCo would be concerned (warranty) that? What would be the pro's/con's concerning having it done? Is there any other long term way of getting rid of it (gas treatments, etc)?

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

I was told this afternoon by the SM to spray cold water from a spray bottle into the intake once the engine was hot in order to get rid of the carbon.

[sadunbar]

I was told this afternoon by the SM to spray cold water from a spray bottle into the intake once the engine was hot in order to get rid of the carbon.

Urghhh...  Sorry, but not me...

Again, not trying to scare you...like I said, I am pretty conservative about this.  I would not put it back together like that.  Maybe you should ask Unbalanced for his thoughts also for a different perspective.....

[hard10]

Urghhh...  Sorry, but not me...

Again, not trying to scare you...like I said, I am pretty conservative about this.  I would not put it back together like that.  Maybe you should ask Unbalanced for his thoughts also for a different perspective.....

I sent him a PM as soon as I finised posting the pictures. He was the first one I thought of to shed some light on this situation.

Now I'm wondering if I should have waited until Monday to start this thread so that the MoCo people would see it first thing.

[Hoist!]

Well, yeah - it should not look that way.

Everyone who experiences this problem has to decide what they are comfortable doing...as there are obviously lots of options.  If you trust your MOCO dealer, let them fix it again.

Personally, once was enough for me and I replaced all the suspect parts with better aftermarket parts.

Given this is your third experience - unless something is done differently then the last two times - it will likely happen again.

At minimum, if it were me, I would ask your dealer to use aftermarket cylinders - like Axtell.  Black Diamond 110 is doing this now, along with some other aftermarket alternate parts.

What you are going thru is exactly what I tried to avoid by replacing virtually every possible suspect part with better aftermarket parts.

Sorry you are having to deal with this and Good Luck...

Either keep bringing it back to HD to fix whatever they want to. Do it as many times as it takes. But don't start changing engine components at the dealer, unless they recommend the parts and know how to build engines, which most don't. BD is doing his at a dealer. He says they're OK. Remember, I went down that road with a dealer who knew what they were doing also! Believe me, they don't!!! Either bring it to a real engine builder and give him the rebuild, or keep dealing with HD. But if you use aftermarket parts, and something fails, they can't w.....ty it with HD anymore. They won't have any parts to return for the w.....ty claim. Been there, done that, don't want the T-shirt, or any memory of the experience whatsoever!!!

Hoist!

[Twolanerider]

I was told this afternoon by the SM to spray cold water from a spray bottle into the intake once the engine was hot in order to get rid of the carbon.

That was his way of saying they won't do anything with it?

AJ, it sounds like they need a few rather pointed questions asked with answers demanded.  Things like why is baked on oil leakage turned to carbon ok?  And even if it's not ok is it not cleaned because it's not a specific failure. 

Depending on the answer to that ask him why the cylinders are being milled if there is no specific failure there?  Why are they doing one thing prophylactically but unwillingly to do the other?

There's no reason to shave a cylinder if there's no problem with it.  It's shaved because for some reason it's not flat or because you're bumping compression.  Make sure they tell you why they are REALLY putting the jugs on a milling machine.  If they won't give you a straight answer bitch to a higher pay grade. 

[sadunbar]

Either keep bringing it back to HD to fix whatever they want to. Do it as many times as it takes. But don't start changing engine components at the dealer, unless they recommend the parts and know how to build engines, which most don't. BD is doing his at a dealer. He says they're OK. Remember, I went down that road with a dealer who knew what they were doing also! Believe me, they don't!!! Either bring it to a real engine builder and give him the rebuild, or keep dealing with HD. But if you use aftermarket parts, and something fails, they can't w.....ty it with HD anymore. They won't have any parts to return for the w.....ty claim. Been there, done that, don't want the T-shirt, or any memory of the experience whatsoever!!!

Hoist!

Howie makes a good point of your warranty...  Some dealers will not warranty the use of aftermarket parts.  Others will stand behind the build.  I believe BD's dealer has agreed to stand behind the rebuild of his motor with the Axtell cylinders.  My dealer made the same offer, but I declined and did the build myself.  Other dealers will not continue your warranty if you use aftermarker motor parts, or install aftermarket motor parts.  You would have to have the conversation with your dealer and understand their position...

Scott

[Hoist!]

That was his way of saying they won't do anything with it?

AJ, it sounds like they need a few rather pointed questions asked with answers demanded.  Things like why is baked on oil leakage turned to carbon ok?  And even if it's not ok is it not cleaned because it's not a specific failure. 

Depending on the answer to that ask him why the cylinders are being milled if there is no specific failure there?  Why are they doing one thing prophylactically but unwillingly to do the other?

There's no reason to shave a cylinder if there's no problem with it.  It's shaved because for some reason it's not flat or because you're bumping compression.  Make sure they tell you why they are REALLY putting the jugs on a milling machine.  If they won't give you a straight answer bitch to a higher pay grade. 

If they don't cleanup those heads and replace the barrels, there's something wrong with these people. That's not normal wear. That's result of a poorly running engine, that's been passing oil past the head gasket.

Hoist!

[Twolanerider]

If they don't cleanup those heads and replace the barrels, there's something wrong with these people. That's not normal wear. That's result of a poorly running engine, that's been passing oil past the head gasket.

Hoist!

That there is something wrong with their approach was really the point to be made there Howie.  They are contradicting themselves by doing supposedly discretionary work on the cylinders but then being unwilling to do something much simpler and quicker like cleaning the heads.

There is a reason they are screwing with the jugs.  They're just not telling him what it is.

[Hoist!]

That there is something wrong with their approach was really the point to be made there Howie.  They are contradicting themselves by doing supposedly discretionary work on the cylinders but then being unwilling to do something much simpler and quicker like cleaning the heads.

There is a reason they are screwing with the jugs.  They're just not telling him what it is.

Now you see why I'm paying instead!

Hoist!

[Twolanerider]

Now you see why I'm paying instead!

Hoist!

Yeah, and you didn't even lose your pushrods !!!




































(instead it was ACRs and cooling fins and piston rings and an actual Russian mechanic and... well, there is a text limit on these posts!)

[Chief]

AJ,

Great pictures. A few thoughts.

One of your pictures showed the ACR. The sheath looks melted a bit. Have them inspect the wires.

Please make sure to get some pictures of the replacement 'experimental' gasket they are using to put it back together with.

Before they go ahead with the install, let's talk and get in touch with HD to see if we can get you a set of hand-picked jugs to go on with the new composite gasket.

I also agree with Scott to get fresh fasteners. Yours have been stretched three times and may be done.

Again, let's talk.

[JDOFLHRIDER]

Well mine is on it's second repair and i have close to 25,000 miles .I tried do get a number of new head gasket from dealer ,service manager said the gaskets came from harley in a box no numbers.When they took mine apart one liner moved alot and the other a lil.My valve guides were ok and motor man took .020 off seats to clean up and said our heads had the better parts except for the valve seats witch he said were the soft seats.My motor man said the next time apart i'll probally need to put seats in.I guess there are some 7mm valves on the new motors ,but we still have the american valves in ours.When they ordered my jugs they also ordered .005 over pistons ,because alot of times the new jugs arn't very  true or straight and if they are like the usual ones they get it will take .005 to clean them up.Now they are waiting for toque plates so they can check they jugs out. If I can i'll try to get some pic's of the new gasket.  RIDE SAFE JDO