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[Twolanerider]

That's not a fairing, it's a front spoiler!

Hoist!

Oh, that is SO an itty bitty fairing !

[Hoist!]

Certainly easier to install.  But I've got a press here so the install isn't a big deal anyway. 

Cost seems to be about 2/3rds that of a clutch kit.  So it's cheaper.  But not jaw droppingly so. 

Biggest indicators for just swapping it out completely are that it's a stock clutch with close to 40k on it now that has already been hot once on the dyno.  Hard to justify spending $250 or so to band aid that when it looks like $425 will start better, stronger and new.

You'd just keep the VPC on the new clutch too!

Hoist!

[Twolanerider]

You'd just keep the VPC on the new clutch too!

Hoist!

Yeah, like none us have ever ran away from redundant expenses !

[Hoist!]

And the plot thickens!

It would be foolish for anyone to think that I wouldn't know the information I furnished here wouldn't get back to the Vendor, CR. I knew it would be quickly too. Too many others here involved with them. So it is apparently now of some concern to them, since it prompted an email to me at 8:07 this morning from them, warning me about taking anymore out of the cylinder for additional piston fitment clearance. I replied back to him, and explained the same things to him that I've explained to ya'll here. There is no physical way that the job was right the first time or second time, if it's right now.

The potential of a marred reputation has caused reason for concern now on their part. That concern and pride in their workmanship is all I wanted AND PAID FOR, from the beginning. Do the job right the first time and you have my confidence and appreciation. Do it wrong, after all this time and money, leaves me little room for confidence or appreciation. The return of the job the first and second time the way it was, was all on them. It took three times to get it right. Is it right now? Time will tell my friends!!!

Maybe I'll receive a thorough explanation and all the specifications now, and have my confidence in them restored. I'll be the first to admit I was wrong about something. But there's nothing right about the process at this point. Is my engine and my interests being considered now, or is it a Vendor not wanting to receive a bad review of the work they did? The right job the first time would have saved us both all this grief!

Hoist!

[SPIDERMAN]

I've been reading through the posts on this thread and I have to wonder how things went so wrong seemingly from the get-go. Howie skipping the tech end of the whole mess, what do you think caused this to take some much time, be so wrong twice and wind up costing so much time and money ? Was this a new vendor for you ? Who recommended them ?  What had their experiences been ?  Did they try to help and call the vendor for you ?

B B

[sblade1948]

Howie, I am really glad to hear things are finally coming together for you. Hope it's all you want it to be, can't wait to see pic's and hear how it runs. I've got 3000 mi. since changing everything out and so far so good. It's a blast to ride. No leaks, major plus. Again good luck.

[Hoist!]

I've been reading through the posts on this thread and I have to wonder how things went so wrong seemingly from the get-go. Howie skipping the tech end of the whole mess, what do you think caused this to take some much time, be so wrong twice and wind up costing so much time and money ? Was this a new vendor for you ? Who recommended them ?  What had their experiences been ?  Did they try to help and call the vendor for you ?

B B

It's pretty simple in retrospect Brian. It started by thinking this could be taken care of under w.....ty by a dealer who allowed me to use the better performance parts instead of the poorly designed HD parts. I'd pay the parts, and they'd pay the labor. CR had a good reputation, and was recommended because they had a package specifically for the '07 110 engine. It was put together by the dealer, tested and final comlimentary components added, until it ran great! 120 HP and 126 Ft-Lbs. No problem. Then 2000 miles later, the ACR's shorted out, shut down the ECM, and spit an ACR right out of the head, threads and all. Towed back to the dealer. Parts sent back to CR. Welded ACR holes closed and added manual CR's. Changed to Axtell cylinders and forged CP pistons. Then reassembled by dealer again. Still not a nickel for labor spent. Well, the engine was reassembled poorly and found the rear head was never torqued. This time I said F it! No more dealer. Pay for the labor and have a real engine guy build it!

That's what led us to this go round now. I decided to do the bottom end too. New cases and S&S crank, and have Vern build the motor. We found the first set of pistons weren't fitted properly and left scuff marks on the pistons and cylinder walls. The returned parts also weren't up to standard and we had to return them for rework. Now everything is apparently correct, but my confidence in them was shattered. Only a good engine guy will carefully check everything to spec. It's called blueprinting. Vern found all this. No one else bothered to check the work. Now it will all be built to spec.

Cost wise it's mostly the time and aggravation. The only parts that were duplicated in the process were cams (because I changed to gear drive now) and a second set of pistons. And now I'm paying for all the labor to get it done right. If I knew this would be the outcome, I would've just had Vern build me a motor from the get go! Shame on me for ever relying on HD and the dealer in the first place. FTF and FTW!!!

Hoist!

Added: And no, not until the email today. They listened to us when we wanted to return the job. The job came back looking professional this time, but took us returning it to get that. That was after 3 months having it. Just want to be clear about the process.

[vagabond6542]

Howie,
You got me a little worried on the warranty.
I just received a new engine due to excessive crank run out.
Does this mean this engine will give up the ghost also???

Geo

[hogasm]

Howie, I called a  good friend of mine who works for a reputable NASCAR team as an engine builder. We discussed the problems with too much piston to cylinder gap = piston slap = cylinder scoring.

Before any block modifications or thermalcoating are done on a twin cam motor, the piston temps are around 440 degrees. Most piston companies base their expansion on a temp close to this. If you have modifies the internals to reduce this temp then the piston companies piston to cylinder gap is reduced and you should contact the piston manufacture and get their recommendation on what they believe the new gap should be.

Another thing we discussed is with the gap being too big, cylinder scoring from piston slap will be pronounced but in a street motor which should have a life of 50,000 miles you probably would not see a problem till well into the engines life. At that point you will just buy another set of pistons and have the cylinders bored out to match, which most machine shops will give you a 0.0015-0.0025  clearance.

[Hoist!]

Howie,
You got me a little worried on the warranty.
I just received a new engine due to excessive crank run out.
Does this mean this engine will give up the ghost also???

Geo

Georege, I can't comment on HD's 110. I gave up on it a long time ago and am on my own. This whole process was only to build a reliable, well peforming 110 engine. What's in the future with yours? Sorry, no idea.

Howie, I called a  good friend of mine who works for a reputable NASCAR team as an engine builder. We discussed the problems with too much piston to cylinder gap = piston slap = cylinder scoring.

Before any block modifications or thermalcoating are done on a twin cam motor, the piston temps are around 440 degrees. Most piston companies base their expansion on a temp close to this. If you have modifies the internals to reduce this temp then the piston companies piston to cylinder gap is reduced and you should contact the piston manufacture and get their recommendation on what they believe the new gap should be.

Another thing we discussed is with the gap being too big, cylinder scoring from piston slap will be pronounced but in a street motor which should have a life of 50,000 miles you probably would not see a problem till well into the engines life. At that point you will just buy another set of pistons and have the cylinders bored out to match, which most machine shops will give you a 0.0015-0.0025  clearance.

Thanks for the info Brian. Vern is taking all the precise measurements on Mon with the torque plates on. He believes that if they're set at 0.0025" now as we we're told, that all he's doing is a cleaner crosshatch. He believes that 0.0015" is too tight, as evident by my first set of CP pistons. But it's the process and lack of attention or info, and what it finally took to get the right job that I have issue with, not the design.

Hoist!

[sadunbar]

Howie, I called a  good friend of mine who works for a reputable NASCAR team as an engine builder. We discussed the problems with too much piston to cylinder gap = piston slap = cylinder scoring.

Before any block modifications or thermalcoating are done on a twin cam motor, the piston temps are around 440 degrees. Most piston companies base their expansion on a temp close to this. If you have modifies the internals to reduce this temp then the piston companies piston to cylinder gap is reduced and you should contact the piston manufacture and get their recommendation on what they believe the new gap should be.

Another thing we discussed is with the gap being too big, cylinder scoring from piston slap will be pronounced but in a street motor which should have a life of 50,000 miles you probably would not see a problem till well into the engines life. At that point you will just buy another set of pistons and have the cylinders bored out to match, which most machine shops will give you a 0.0015-0.0025  clearance.

I am pretty certain coated pistons would have different cylinder fits then non coated pistons - due to the thickness of the coating and the effect the coating has on the operating temperature.  I would suspect the effect may be different with each piston manufacturer - due to the wall thickness and design of each type of piston.  I suspect the clearances listed on the build sheets are intended for non coated pistons.  I don't know what effect adding the coating has on the desired clearance, but I am sure there is some effect.

Perhaps one of our site engine builders can comment on the effect of heat coated pistons vs. non heat coated pistons as related to piston/cylinder fits.

[vagabond6542]

Georege, I can't comment on HD's 110. I gave up on it a long time ago and am on my own. This whole process was only to build a reliable, well peforming 110 engine. What's in the future with yours? Sorry, no idea.

Thanks for the info Brian. Vern is taking all the precise measurements on Mon with the torque plates on. He believes that if they're set at 0.0025" now as we we're told, that all he's doing is a cleaner crosshatch. He believes that 0.0015" is too tight, as evident by my first set of CP pistons. But it's the process and lack of attention or info, and what it finally took to get the right job that I have issue with, not the design.

Hoist!

Thanks for the reply.
Now I hope to learn something here.  
Question:
How much expansion of the piston is expected during normal heat temperatures of the internal chamber??
If my past experience dictate anything, I would be looking at that quantity in measurement for the piston clearance.
Maybe, give it a smidget more for longevity of the components.
Now I could be wrong, so please feel free to correct me.

[hogasm]

I am pretty certain coated pistons would have different cylinder fits then non coated pistons - due to the thickness of the coating and the effect the coating has on the operating temperature.  I would suspect the effect may be different with each piston manufacturer - due to the wall thickness and design of each type of piston.  I suspect the clearances listed on the build sheets are intended for non coated pistons.  I don't know what effect adding the coating has on the desired clearance, but I am sure there is some effect.

Perhaps one of our site engine builders can comment on the effect of heat coated pistons vs. non heat coated pistons as related to piston/cylinder fits.

I can tell you that with the coating that HPC does, which is what is sone on most NASCAR motors, makes the piston temps lower to 250 degrees. That  is almost 200 degree drop in temp. Thermal expansion is greatly diminished with that drastic drop in temp, but only the piston manufacture can tell you for certain, unless you take the time to experiment for yourself.

[Hoist!]

Thanks for the reply.
Now I hope to learn something here.  
Question:
How much expansion of the piston is expected during normal heat temperatures of the internal chamber??
If my past experience dictate anything, I would be looking at that quantity in measurement for the piston clearance.
Maybe, give it a smidget more for longevity of the components.
Now I could be wrong, so please feel free to correct me.

That's kinda how I understand it. There's usually an acceptable range for tight and loose fit. Safe is midpoint. My piston spec had no range and said 3.5thou. But the allowable clearance reduction is being explained due to the thermal coating. Why is this even coming up now. This all should've been a known entity and not questioned had the job come back right the first time.

The HD motor has cast pistons. If I'm not mistaken, they're normally fitted to 1 thou. They can't handle as much power and compression as the forged though.

Hoist!

[vagabond6542]

That's kinda how I understand it. There's usually an acceptable range for tight and loose fit. Safe is midpoint. My piston spec had no range and said 3.5thou. But the allowable clearance reduction is being explained due to the thermal coating. Why is this even coming up now. This all should've been a known entity and not questioned had the job come back right the first time.

The HD motor has cast pistons. If I'm not mistaken, they're normally fitted to 1 thou. They can't handle as much power and compression as the forged though.

Hoist!

I can see your problem.
The cast pistons must have been bare metal. Ergo, close to zip on expansion, therefore were tight.
The thermal coating ones, they may be playing it safe due to the coating may have a wear factor, creating a later problem after wear.

Again I could be wrong.