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[hdctss]

anybody who would continue to throw good money after bad on products that are this poor...it reminds me when honda and then toyota and nissan were kicking the auto makers butts a few years ago...if you want to slow down production then we need to get out there and express to our fellow riders the quality and mechanical issues that are continuing to be produced..perhaps standing in the showrooms on Saturdays speaking about the problems with our bikes would have a slight negative impact on sales, but then again maybe not...that trick did work to get my deposit back on a car once though.

[SuperBogs]

So you must have knowledge that they did not increase production capacity after 2003 which might have increased production without extending the number of production days.

I will bet that if you look at the number of bikes built in 2003 and on that you will find a steady increase in production.

Tom Bergmann, chief financial officer and head of strategy, said: “We have taken 25,000 units out from our production, but we’ll still ship around 300,000 motorcycles this year.”

U.S. sales of Harley-Davidson motorcycles were down 12.8 percent during the first quarter. For that reason, Milwaukee-based Harley-Davidson announced in April that it planned to let 370 unionized workers and 360 nonproduction workers go nationwide. The company wants to ship fewer bikes than it sells. That would be a return to the business model that served the company well during the late '90s and the earlier part of this decade, when people were waiting as long as six months for a Harley.



I can understand that alittle but in realty I think that only helps the dealers in markup instead of volume for HD itself. I have a hard time thinking that with the messups like with the 110" and other issues that they still expect people to put up with their cocky attitudes, and often chitty service. Why pay a premium for a sub par product and take a beating from the dealer PLUS possibly wait months and months not only to just get the bike you bought but then have it in the shop for weeks on end....arghhhhhhhhhh.....but there are so many hard core HD bikers that this is exactly what will happen.......so to those that buy into that BS good for you, shut your mouths, take the chit you deserve form the dealer and make sure you have a truck or a bike trailer, with that 110" engine you'll need it. If Ford made trucks they were not nearly as reliable as Chev what do you think would happen to Ford, why it's not making the MoCo come to the plate with an equal or better quality product I have no idea, for the price they should have a damn life time warranty with a free loaner when the bike is in the shop for repeat repairs. That would wake them up me thinks. Whew, that feels better.....Who wants a beer?

Bob

[Fired00d]

So you must have knowledge that they did not increase production capacity after 2003 which might have increased production without extending the number of production days.

I will bet that if you look at the number of bikes built in 2003 and on that you will find a steady increase in production.

Tom Bergmann, chief financial officer and head of strategy, said: “We have taken 25,000 units out from our production, but we’ll still ship around 300,000 motorcycles this year.”

U.S. sales of Harley-Davidson motorcycles were down 12.8 percent during the first quarter. For that reason, Milwaukee-based Harley-Davidson announced in April that it planned to let 370 unionized workers and 360 nonproduction workers go nationwide. The company wants to ship fewer bikes than it sells. That would be a return to the business model that served the company well during the late '90s and the earlier part of this decade, when people were waiting as long as six months for a Harley.

Don't have any other knowledge other then what's been public, that is not what I was saying, nor was I disputing the fact that production may/will be cut back. Just seems odd that the year mentioned was a year that they extended production by several months. I do realize production has steadily increased each year nor do I have specific numbers for '03, however the fact that they extended the production year would lead me to believe that was one of the higher years of production.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[Midnight Rider]

IMO, they may cut production on the regular bikes, but will never do so on the CVO Baggers, as they sell every one of them they make, regardless of the 110 motor.  Hopefully, they'll get that part right in '09.

Personally, if I ever buy another HD, it'll be water cooled, or an 05/06 model.

[sportygordy]

Personally, if I ever buy another HD, it'll be water cooled, or an 05/06 model.

YUP,, same here., prefabably a water cooled

[Gone Fishin']

(...)
I can understand that alittle but in realty I think that only helps the dealers in markup instead of volume for HD itself. I have a hard time thinking that with the messups like with the 110" and other issues that they still expect people to put up with their cocky attitudes, and often chitty service. Why pay a premium for a sub par product and take a beating from the dealer PLUS possibly wait months and months not only to just get the bike you bought but then have it in the shop for weeks on end....arghhhhhhhhhh.....but there are so many hard core HD bikers that this is exactly what will happen.......so to those that buy into that BS good for you, shut your mouths, take the chit you deserve form the dealer and make sure you have a truck or a bike trailer, with that 110" engine you'll need it. If Ford made trucks they were not nearly as reliable as Chev what do you think would happen to Ford, why it's not making the MoCo come to the plate with an equal or better quality product I have no idea, for the price they should have a damn life time warranty with a free loaner when the bike is in the shop for repeat repairs. That would wake them up me thinks. Whew, that feels better.....Who wants a beer?

Bob

Are you a little aggravated? Understandable. However, the 110s are a very small fraction of the entire production. The vast majority of H-D bikes have the 96 or the V-Rod engines. To me these engines seems to be very reliable. Just a thought.

Ride safely,
Louis

[cuttinhorse]

I would like to see the actual numbers of warranty claims on the 110ci motor. Does anyone know specifics or is the rant about the 110 being a bad motor just personal opinion based on a hand full of people who post on forums such as this? And yes, we are a handful. Look at the number of 110ci motors sold and count the number of members on the site. Can anyone name 100 folks who have had problems? I think there were maybe maybe 16,000 or so 110ci sold in 07 and 08.

If I recall a few years back "everyone" had a bearing spin on the evo motor. I've got lots of buddies who have had several HDs over the years and none had a bearing spin.

I own 2 Ducatis and all the Ducati forums are full of posts about how bad the quality is. Also have a BMW R1200GS, same thing......rear drive units failing left and right. You would think they were falling off the bikes before they were uncrated. I own an 08 Dodge 1 ton with a 6.7 diesel and every Dodge forum is full of posts about how bad they are. Same with the Chevy Duramax, same with the Ford 6.0 and now the 6.4 diesels. My wife has a BMW X5 and if one were to read the BMW forums he may get the impression that it is a miserable excuse for a SUV. I recently bought a .22-.250 and when doing research I found plenty of folks who claim the particular model I bought was junk, couldn't hold a 4" group at 150 yards.

There are forums all over cyberspace with ANYTHING you want to read available on any subject with polar opposite opinions voiced. Until someone shows me numbers related to production and compares it to relative percentage of units, opinions based on individuals personal experience without data are a fart in a hurricane.

Name me a car, truck, motorcycle, boat engine, cell phone, TV, lawn mower, or electric azz wiper and I'll find you plenty of unhappy people who want to convince you they are junk and we should all ban together and sue.

I feel for those who have had problems. I waited over a year to buy a 110ci HD and in that time talked to everyone I could who owned one. I could not find any evidence that the 110ci problems were a bad choice.

Let the rocks fly.

[iski]

I would like to see the actual numbers of warranty claims on the 110ci motor. Does anyone know specifics or is the rant about the 110 being a bad motor just personal opinion based on a hand full of people who post on forums such as this? And yes, we are a handful. Look at the number of 110ci motors sold and count the number of members on the site. Can anyone name 100 folks who have had problems? I think there were maybe maybe 16,000 or so 110ci sold in 07 and 08.

If I recall a few years back "everyone" had a bearing spin on the evo motor. I've got lots of buddies who have had several HDs over the years and none had a bearing spin.

I own 2 Ducatis and all the Ducati forums are full of posts about how bad the quality is. Also have a BMW R1200GS, same thing......rear drive units failing left and right. You would think they were falling off the bikes before they were uncrated. I own an 08 Dodge 1 ton with a 6.7 diesel and every Dodge forum is full of posts about how bad they are. Same with the Chevy Duramax, same with the Ford 6.0 and now the 6.4 diesels. My wife has a BMW X5 and if one were to read the BMW forums he may get the impression that it is a miserable excuse for a SUV. I recently bought a .22-.250 and when doing research I found plenty of folks who claim the particular model I bought was junk, couldn't hold a 4" group at 150 yards.

There are forums all over cyberspace with ANYTHING you want to read available on any subject with polar opposite opinions voiced. Until someone shows me numbers related to production and compares it to relative percentage of units, opinions based on individuals personal experience without data are a fart in a hurricane.

Name me a car, truck, motorcycle, boat engine, cell phone, TV, lawn mower, or electric azz wiper and I'll find you plenty of unhappy people who want to convince you they are junk and we should all ban together and sue.

I feel for those who have had problems. I waited over a year to buy a 110ci HD and in that time talked to everyone I could who owned one. I could not find any evidence that the 110ci problems were a bad choice.

Let the rocks fly.

Not a rock thrower myself, not many around these parts but back when I lived in Texas they were sure plentiful....

Not everyone with a 110 has had a problem.  Quite a few members here have.  Apparently the MoCo knew there was a problem for a while, but did not know how to fix it.  Some will claim they still do not know how to fix it, and that may or may not be true.  Opinions are like azzholes, everyone has one and most all of them stink.  My opinion is the MoCo will fix the problems on the 110's that have problems..  It is in their best interest to do so, since they are a corp. and are very interested in continuing to make money. 

Your point is a good one - 110's with problems vs those with no problems.  My guess is that around 30% have failed, but that is just a guess.  Some have failed several times and that may be due to incorrect parts, incorrect wrenching, or a combination of both.  This forum represents more CVO owners than any other forum and our members are passionate about their bikes.  Reading the threads here that were started by folks before & after the thread I started, there are quite a few 110's here that have had a variety of problems - crank run out as well as head gasket (cylinder slip) failures.  So the number may not approach 100%, but it is substantial when you consider that only a small % of CVO owners with 110's post here.

[cuttinhorse]

consider that only a small % of CVO owners with 110's post here.

My point exactly. 16,000 plus units sold, a handful of complaints. I would love to see some stats on what motivates people to begin participating on "motorhead" forums. It may be that when people have a problem with a product thay seek advise, information, sympathy etc. from others in the same situation.

But I am going to write a post on Cuttinhorse.com and complain about the sorry good for nuthin cattle I got stuck with this weekend at the World Paint Horse Show in Ft Worth. Dang conspiracy I'm tellin ya.

[iski]

My point exactly. 16,000 plus units sold, a handful of complaints. I would love to see some stats on what motivates people to begin participating on "motorhead" forums. It may be that when people have a problem with a product thay seek advise, information, sympathy etc. from others in the same situation.

But I am going to write a post on Cuttinhorse.com and complain about the sorry good for nuthin cattle I got stuck with this weekend at the World Paint Horse Show in Ft Worth. Dang conspiracy I'm tellin ya.

A few began their posting lives here with a problem, but most were posting here long before they had a problem.  I was one of those folks, and with 17k on the bike figured my chances were looking pretty good then the bike leaked front & rear.  Not sure what % here who post have had 110 problems but it may approach 50% now.  Many still do not have any problems, except when they go to auction & return with a load of cattle that eat too damn much......   



Have not been to Joe T's in a while, need to get by there on the next trip over.

[Hoist!]

My point exactly. 16,000 plus units sold, a handful of complaints. I would love to see some stats on what motivates people to begin participating on "motorhead" forums. It may be that when people have a problem with a product thay seek advise, information, sympathy etc. from others in the same situation.

But I am going to write a post on Cuttinhorse.com and complain about the sorry good for nuthin cattle I got stuck with this weekend at the World Paint Horse Show in Ft Worth. Dang conspiracy I'm tellin ya.

16,000 units/year and many failures (also in the thousands) isn't a very good track record. It only serves to prove that the motor was undengineered/designed and never properly tested. Since the numbers are so small, HD's "wait and see how bad it gets" approach is typical response of the MoCo. Most don't ride em or wouldn't begin to know where to look for the problem. I find em on the road at gas stops all the time. The guy never had a clue he was leaking. Ya like the bike, get one. But don't be sitting there holding your breath that they're gonna fix this 110 mess. You might just turn blue! FTF & FTW!!!

Hoist!

[cuttinhorse]

16,000 units/year and many failures (also in the thousands)
Hoist!

Where do those numbers come from? "(also in the thousands)" This is the point of what I am trying to get out. Often people say things that may mislead others, unintentionally of course How many members are on this forum? How many have had problems? How many 110ci sold? Without data, it is not very helpful information other than to know there is a potential to have a leak just as there is a potential to have a problem with anything mechanical.

As far as being under engineered and under designed. What is that statement based on? The most OVER designed mechanisms in the world are products that must meet U.S. military specs. That is why they cost so much. The testing, validation, field trials, design reviews are frickin unbeilevable compared to a civilian product. Ever hear of the V-22 Osprey? It has gone through many design reviews by the customer BEFORE they crashed 2 in 6 months a few years ago due to "design" failures. Ever heard of a M-16 jamb? Do you think Uncle Sam just said "just give me what you got, don't worry about field tests" Stuff happens, engineers are human. You want an big inch air cooled engine you gotta live with a lot of thermal expansion issues until metallurgy catches up. Then you won't like the price for the materials it takes to match the coefficient of thermal expansion inherent with a machinable allloy.

I'm tellin ya. Pull any make and model vehicle out of the air and get on the internet and read what people have to say. Or save the effort cuz you going to find a whole bunch of people who think they are all POS.

[sportygordy]

That would be a return to the business model that served the company well during the late '90s and the earlier part of this decade, when people were waiting as long as six months for a Harley.

Yea lets hope Harley follows this model. Remember the days when we 'made' money on our re-sells. I do, i sold a 96 Softail Deluxe for $21,500 in 1998. I made money on that deal...and had people standing in line to buy it... 

[Hoist!]

Where do those numbers come from? "(also in the thousands)" This is the point of what I am trying to get out. Often people say things that may mislead others, unintentionally of course How many members are on this forum? How many have had problems? How many 110ci sold? Without data, it is not very helpful information other than to know there is a potential to have a leak just as there is a potential to have a problem with anything mechanical.

As far as being under engineered and under designed. What is that statement based on? The most OVER designed mechanisms in the world are products that must meet U.S. military specs. That is why they cost so much. The testing, validation, field trials, design reviews are frickin unbeilevable compared to a civilian product. Ever hear of the V-22 Osprey? It has gone through many design reviews by the customer BEFORE they crashed 2 in 6 months a few years ago due to "design" failures. Ever heard of a M-16 jamb? Do you think Uncle Sam just said "just give me what you got, don't worry about field tests" Stuff happens, engineers are human. You want an big inch air cooled engine you gotta live with a lot of thermal expansion issues until metallurgy catches up. Then you won't like the price for the materials it takes to match the coefficient of thermal expansion inherent with a machinable allloy.

I'm tellin ya. Pull any make and model vehicle out of the air and get on the internet and read what people have to say. Or save the effort cuz you going to find a whole bunch of people who think they are all POS.

Don't know why you're so hung up on these 110's maybe not being do bad after all. When HD develops a new motor, either themselves or with outside help, they spend time, money and engineereing to develop it, and try to get it right. Then they test the chit out of it. When something comes up afterwards, they make a design change and fix it. But this 110 was an afterthought for CVO's, after developing the 96". With 103 conversions easily done to 96" with simple barrel replacement, they needed to do something special for the '07 CVO's. WTF, just bore it out to 4". How bad can we screw things up that way? Well, with these cases not necessarily designed for very large bores, and never making EPA motors this large, they got it wrong. It can be easily fixed by designing good 4" barrels and replacing them all. Which they haven't attempted to do at all. Replacing gaskets after 2 years of this is total BS! But if you think such a repeatable problem on many of these POS 110's is not representitive of the poor design and quality of their flagship engine, then enjoy your perfect 110 motor!

Hoist!

[Twolanerider]

My point exactly. 16,000 plus units sold, a handful of complaints. I would love to see some stats on what motivates people to begin participating on "motorhead" forums.

The failures are not universal.  Obviously.  They are significant compared to contemporary expectations of modern manufacturing though.  Even though it is completely anecdotal our community here illustrates at least that much.

Harley will of course publicly release no such data in the form of hard numbers.  That Harley has addressed, readdressed and readdressed again a continuing problem with redundant head gasket revisions gives light to the obvious fact of a problem.  No one, especially parsimonious Harley Davidson, is going to spend the R&D and other time/expense to develop and deploy what has been three different head gaskets in a span of just over a year if there were no problem.