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Author Topic: SEEG TOP DOG'S  (Read 10117 times)

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hd2003-se2005

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Re: SEEG TOP DOG'S
« Reply #75 on: July 15, 2005, 02:04:08 PM »

Dr. Evil


Patience is required.
Black Dog will post the math.

Follow Tater's lead [smiley=laugh.gif] and chill a bit.

It's coming!
« Last Edit: July 15, 2005, 02:04:36 PM by hd2003-se2005 »
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HUBBARD

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Re: SEEG TOP DOG'S
« Reply #76 on: July 15, 2005, 02:08:54 PM »

Quote
That was my point as well... the number [bgcolor=Yellow]CANNOT[/bgcolor] be static.  It's [bgcolor=Yellow]impossible[/bgcolor].


There endeth the lesson.  Later--HUBBARD
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Dr. Evil

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Re: SEEG TOP DOG'S
« Reply #77 on: July 15, 2005, 02:17:27 PM »

Quote
Dr. Evil


Patience is required.
Black Dog will post the math.

Follow Tater's lead [smiley=laugh.gif] and chill a bit.

It's coming!


Patience is a virtue I do not possess unfortunately  [smiley=laugh.gif]

Even better math problems.... [smiley=confused5.gif]

So if 6lbs (the alleged static number) costs 1 horse...
an 800lb bike would cost 133hp
an 800lb bike with me on it would cost 179hp
an 800lb bike with me and passenger would cost 200 horse!

My SEEG has only half that, and still moves pretty damn quick 2up!  [smiley=laugh.gif]  The math is flawed my friend.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2005, 02:20:16 PM by DJW »
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Fatboy

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Re: SEEG TOP DOG'S
« Reply #78 on: July 15, 2005, 02:21:06 PM »

Chip,

Is there some sort of "gyroscopic" effect which comes into play once the motorcycle (mass) is in motion?

I think I'm starting to understand better a catch phrase used here a lot....."judge by the seat of your pants experience."

The dyno number's are a tool....maybe best used to check the efficientcy and correct tuning of the scoot. But due to all the dynamics in play the actual ride on the street is what may matter most.

 



hd2003-se2005

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Re: SEEG TOP DOG'S
« Reply #79 on: July 15, 2005, 02:29:40 PM »

Quote

There endeth the lesson.  Later--HUBBARD



Tater the lesson is not over.
Wait (please) until Black Dog post the math.
**********************************

And DJW
YEP, you are impatient. I have that problem also!
But bear with me till you read Dog's post.
***********************************

TwoLane
Thanks Bud for your help!
**********************************

Fat Boy

Sorry, I have clouded this thread. Just thought that info was important!



[smiley=nixweiss.gif]
« Last Edit: July 15, 2005, 02:30:18 PM by hd2003-se2005 »
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Twolanerider

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Re: SEEG TOP DOG'S
« Reply #80 on: July 15, 2005, 03:24:19 PM »

Quote

 Is there some sort of "gyroscopic" effect which comes into play once the motorcycle (mass) is in motion?

 


Fatboy,
The gyroscopic effect is what keeps us upright.  The gyros are the spinning wheels.  While I suppose we all like to think it's our superhuman balancing skills that keeps our mean machines upright buzzing down the road at whatever miles per hour, well..... actually.... notsomuch  [smiley=laugh.gif] .

The wheels, once they start spinning, are our gyroscopes and they tend to pull everything inline along the axes they share.  That's why if you lean over a bit while going down the road it kind of feels like "something" is pushing you back up on the bike (until you lean too far).  That same gyro effect is why countersteering is what it is and works as it does.  But gyro effect is a keep me upright kind of thing but not (directly) a make me go fast kind of thing.  Gyro effect is why the bike stays up while going down the road but falls down if you let go (without the kickstand deployed) while it's standing still  [smiley=beerchug.gif]
« Last Edit: July 15, 2005, 03:26:16 PM by twolanerider »
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ufo

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Re: SEEG TOP DOG'S
« Reply #81 on: July 15, 2005, 06:47:58 PM »

I'd like to claim top dog for leaving HD2003 in the dust from 70 to 120 mph [smiley=shocked2.gif] with the exact same setup he has but by using his pc map  [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

Ok, in all fairness I probably weigh a little less [smiley=curtain.gif]. Nice meeting you HD and thanks again for the map.

ufo  
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hd2003-se2005

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Re: SEEG TOP DOG'S
« Reply #82 on: July 15, 2005, 07:24:59 PM »

Hi UFO

Strange how all this comes together!
The post above was about the skinny guy VRS. the (not so skinny) guy.

See,  I am the example.
All conditions and equipment the same.
Probably 60 to 70 lbs. difference in riders.
10+ horsepower difference,
Results, I lose [smiley=cry2.gif]

UFO, I had posted the below to Hubbard the day you and I met at Stations Inn,

"I should have called you so we could have gone riding today.
It was a good day, rode 400 miles.
Went to Shatly Springs and then rode over to Stations Inn.
Ran into a UFO on a red SEEG and got dusted  on the way back.
All in all a good day."
**************************************************

Was good to meet you UFO
I want another chance.
Me and 103T are dieting for horsepower!

[smiley=bigok.gif]

Actually it was hd-dude's map.   Thanks Mr. Dude!
Would it help if I said I never loaded it into mine.
I'm looking at some other options.


« Last Edit: July 15, 2005, 07:28:32 PM by hd2003-se2005 »
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Black_Dog

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Re: SEEG TOP DOG'S
« Reply #83 on: July 15, 2005, 09:57:27 PM »

So far I'm missing critical data, I've started to build a 3D performance model that will show needed HP at a given weight, speed and CD, as I work on the curve using .400 and .500 for CD the results change dramaticaly it looks like we need to know the exact CD for a SEEG.  I'll work more on this early next week.  I also know that there are at least 2 HD Engineers that follow our threads quit often and just maybe they can help us out with the CD.

Black Dog [smiley=beerchug.gif]

 
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Black_Dog

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Re: SEEG TOP DOG'S
« Reply #84 on: July 16, 2005, 10:09:47 AM »

I was watching the Speed channel this morning and they were working on an old Mustang and were removing weight, they said that every 100 pounds you remove from the car it will take 15 less HP to launch the car with the same velocity.  That equals 6.6 pounds per HP.

If 2 identical SEEG's are racing and one has a rider that is 80 pounds heavier it will take 12 more HP for him to accelerale at the same rate.

Black Dog  [smiley=beerchug.gif]
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ggraves427

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Re: SEEG TOP DOG'S
« Reply #85 on: July 16, 2005, 10:49:15 AM »

Yeah, if you see a little skinny fart on a B/B SEEG, stay away.  How about a CVO meeting somewhere where there is a eighth mile drag race track near by.  Have everybody that wants to play put in $20.  Last man standing takes all.  Timing slips talk and BS walks. [smiley=beerchug.gif] Quit spending money on engine parts and start buying diet beer.  Look at beanpole, he's kicking ass.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2005, 11:01:49 AM by hotlineguy »
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Twolanerider

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Re: SEEG TOP DOG'S
« Reply #86 on: July 16, 2005, 11:34:03 AM »

Quote
I was watching the Speed channel this morning and they were working on an old Mustang and were removing weight, they said that every 100 pounds you remove from the car it will take 15 less HP to launch the car with the same velocity.  That equals 6.6 pounds per HP.

If 2 identical SEEG's are racing and one has a rider that is 80 pounds heavier it will take 12 more HP for him to accelerale at the same rate.

Black Dog  [smiley=beerchug.gif]


It's true that the parasitic loss from extra weight at launch is important at the track.  One of the most important things for someone really in to it actually.  But even then it's not the only thing.  Gearing, where the mill's power band goes through, where the stall is (if it's an automatic), and a variety of other factors all figure in.  The Speed Channel is often entertaining.  But it's not really a chalk board that presents physics too well.

But even then the weight becomes secondary as a source of parasitic loss of performance (not engine produced power, but overall performance)  to the aero drag of the rolling mass going down the road.   At the drag strip weight is so especially important because you're in an environment where the launch is sooooo important and you spend so little (comparatively speaking) time actually moving down the road.

In a different environment, however, there are particular circumstances where the weight has specific kind of benefits in terms of momentum.  So you should always keep in mind that none of this stuff can stand alone and for every circumstance where an individual factor might be beneficial there's almost always some countervailing circumstance where a nearly opposite factor might also be important.

Some years back I used to be spend a lot of time at the track (oval and drags).  Built a few cars and blueprinted more engines than I care to remember (it's a mind numbing exercise in details detail details).  The scientific calculators and computers of the day were just part of what we did accounting for the total mass and where it was on the car (which is also just as important).  I personally only ever ran naturally aspirated and my best time was only ever an 8.48 at 163.  So we were by no means running with the big dogs.  But you still begin to get clued in.

For our bikes running around the street a difference of 40 pounds pulling away from the stop sign will be felt in the seat of your pants.  Sure.  But it doesn't have the continuous parasitic loss once you get moving that DJ was humorously suggesting when he figured that with the weight of he and his passenger and loaded bags that he'd actually have to be riding downhill and backward with a tailwind to have gotten anyplace.  It just doesn't work that way.  The overall weigt will affect us starting out and have an impact on rate of acceleration to a desired point.  The faster you're rolling, however, the more important becomes the aero drag; especially for something as small and comparatively light as our bikes.  And doubling your speed doesn't simply double your drag.  No, we're not that lucky.   But once you get to a given speed it takes far less power (from the engine) to hold it there than it did to accelerate to that point.  So that extra fifty pounds on the saddle or in the tour pak makes a minimal to cruising down the road.

So I guess you might say that (for normal riding) we'd go on a diet and lose weight to get started faster.  But to move faster or more efficiently going down the road it would be more important to be aerodynamically sleeker.  And believe me, sleek is one thing this body will never be  [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]
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hd2003-se2005

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Re: SEEG TOP DOG'S
« Reply #87 on: July 16, 2005, 12:13:01 PM »

Don

I don't really see making a SEEG a whole lot more aerodynamic.
You can
remove tour pak
smaller windshield
remove lowers
leave off wind deflectors

But past the above, you start changing the essence of the look of the bike.
Our challenge is to make our  brick as aerodynamic as possible and make up the difference with horsepower.

.
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Mr. We

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Re: SEEG TOP DOG'S
« Reply #88 on: July 16, 2005, 12:15:36 PM »

Lets not forget that diet!  [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

I'm down 15 lbs, that's gotta be another horsey!  [smiley=beerchug.gif]
« Last Edit: July 16, 2005, 12:18:13 PM by WeCVO »
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Re: SEEG TOP DOG'S
« Reply #89 on: July 16, 2005, 05:04:17 PM »

Quote
Don

I don't really see making a SEEG a whole lot more aerodynamic.
You can
remove tour pak
smaller windshield
remove lowers
leave off wind deflectors

But past the above, you start changing the essence of the look of the bike.
Our challenge is to make our  brick as aerodynamic as possible and make up the difference with horsepower.

.


I agree with you completely Chip.  They is what they is.  

So barring changes that most of us really wouldn't want anyway we (to borrow a phrase) ride it like we stole it and just don't worry about it a whole lot  [smiley=7.gif] .  We may have something that has the glide ratio of just worse than a well thrown rock; but they look cool anyway !!
« Last Edit: July 16, 2005, 05:06:26 PM by twolanerider »
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