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[SBB]

Nah, no facts! Just made up BS! K?

Hoist!

AHHHHHHHHHH

Little grasshopper the truth comes out.

Had a feelin but really appreciate you spelling it out for me.

You know, I'm kinda slow.  (I heard that somewhere  )

Thanks Bud!

I remain, 

S
  /
    B
      /
        B

 

[Hoist!]

AHHHHHHHHHH

Little grasshopper the truth comes out.

Had a feelin but really appreciate you spelling it out for me.

You know, I'm kinda slow.  (I heard that somewhere  )

Thanks Bud!

I remain, 

S
  /
    B
      /
        B

 

HeHe!!! You just love breakin balls don't ya?

Fairly common shop talk for years. Here's just one example from Andrews. They've made a coupl'a cams before!

"Engines with gear driven cams show a 4 hp gain over cams with chains. If less power is needed to turn the camshafts, more power gets to the rear wheel. Also, gear drive cams do not have chain tensioner shoes to wear out. When deciding what cam to use in your 88 engine, the most important consideration is the proper match between compression ratio and intake cam duration. For best street performance, the static compression pressure should be around 175-180 PSI. Drag motors can handle still higher static pressures. Lower static pressure of 160 PSI are great for all around riding."

Now we're not talking significant gains, but gains are gains, and it's because it's a more efficient means of transfering motion.

I'm sure there are other sources, but you look for em. You'll find em. SLOWLY!

Hoist!

[SBB]

HeHe!!! You just love breakin balls don't ya?

Well calling B/S on B/S is fun.

Fairly common shop talk for years. Here's just one example from Andrews. They've made a coupl'a cams before!

"Engines with gear driven cams show a 4 hp gain over cams with chains. If less power is needed to turn the camshafts, more power gets to the rear wheel. Also, gear drive cams do not have chain tensioner shoes to wear out. When deciding what cam to use in your 88 engine, the most important consideration is the proper match between compression ratio and intake cam duration. For best street performance, the static compression pressure should be around 175-180 PSI. Drag motors can handle still higher static pressures. Lower static pressure of 160 PSI are great for all around riding."

You spout the stuff you spout then try to support it with info that doesn't apply.

Lets start over!
Read the title of this thread.
Does it not say 07 and later?  HELLO?
The "FACTS" you quote are for an 88" motor.
2007, , , 88" motor hmmmmmmmmm
If your going to use "facts" try using the ones that apply!

Now we're not talking significant gains, but gains are gains, and it's because it's a more efficient means of transfering motion.

I'm sure there are other sources, (But just remember we are talking 07 motors, not before) but you look for em. You'll find em. SLOWLY!

Hoist!

You quote a lot of "hoist facts", if you need any help to find out if they are true before you post, I'm here for you!

SBB

[Hoist!]

You quote a lot of "hoist facts", if you need any help to find out if they are true before you post, I'm here for you!

SBB

Last one from me now because you're grasping at straws and getting silly. Again SLOW ONE! First I have nothing to prove to you or anyone else. Check your own facts before asking these silly leading questions. The quote was just that. A quote. I wouldn't change a quote. Why, you want it to say 110? Doesn't have to. A gear system is more efficient than a chain system. Period. This one's just a better chain system than the last and is more reliable. From this point forward, do your own research before you break my balls.

Now please state all/any of your backup before us supporting that the chain drive will yield more power than the gear drive. Thanks!

Hoist!

[hd-dude]

JDO,
IMO,Your guy is right on.Gear drive cams in '07 and later is really a waste of money.
John

Agreed, unless you are going to pull the crank and have it trued and welded. The runout on the 07+ cranks are all over the place and the gears will most likely crash and break when the runout becomes excessive. Also the gears can and will be very noisy. There 07+ hydro tensioner's have less tension on the chains than the 99-06 TC's did. This results in less HP loss in the cam chest than the older spring style shoes.

[skyhook]

my theory on gear drive: absolutely the best fix for '03 and later twin cams is to true/weld the crank and use gear drive...biggest reason is that gear drive, when set up correctly will open and close the valve exactly where the cam intends...it eliminates the slop of a chain, whose main purpose is to reduce noise emissions (thanks to tree-huggers)....from what I've learned about making power, I'll only run .650 lift from here on out...and that should be done with gears....the new style chain drive is a good system, and more economical than splitting cases and bulletproofing the bottom end....but if you're a perfectionist like me and want every possible hp, gear drive is the ticket

also I have a different theory of 110 engines...as long as my '08 holds together (115hp/115tq, 9k miles and counting)...I say there's nothing wrong with the 110 motor...as long as you keep head temps below 330* and have it tuned correctly including adding timing from the as-built horribly retarded condition!....I also believe that the cranks are ok...less durable than pre '03, but will hold up if ridden correctly...RANT OVER, and as always, jmho

[AZSSE]

As Jack Nicholson? said in "Mars Attacks" "Why can't we all just get along?", right before the Martians melted him with the Ray-Gun.

[Classic Beast]

by all means stay with the chains to put up with bad crank run out but your forgetting about the oil pump which is prone to failure even when the run out reaches .003" not to mention vibration, extra wear on the bearings etc etc. Have you seen the S&S fixture that demonstrates chain VS gear drives, a huge difference in the effort required to turn the cam not to mention more accurate cam timing.

[bigdave110]

Opinions seem to vary. Just like a$$ hol#s
I don't have any fancy specs for you or any one else on this site.
But, I like you own several bikes, (ALL OF WHICH RUN ALL  THE TIME).   
04 wide glide 54,000  S&S gear drive cams since day one.  I run it hard, no problems and no more noise than normal.
07 ultra  23,452 S&S gear drive cams from 3,000 on, run hard also, rode to Sturgis this past June. no problems, no more noise than friends 08. runs better and cooler.
08 cvo ultra S&S gear drive cams since mile 1, 13,482 run very hard, no problems, no more noise than other 2 bikes. runs real good and cool.
And before some one else says anything, I also have owned several older bikes, all had gear drives. You remember those days(WHEN HAVING A HARLEY WAS NOT THE IN THING)   HA HA !!
So I can't give you a bunch of useless paper specs, or wisdom from my years of working on these bikes. I can only tell ya how mine are running.
I would never run anything but gear drives.
Any one who states any thing about them and has never used them is full of SH!T.
I can read specs, articles, and peoples opinions and spout them off like I know sh!t also.
That does not mean crap.
Use em then tell me what you think. Please don't insult me by spouting off some crap you read or that some other dummy told ya.   
Just Sayin
Big Dave
Gear Drive lover
Don't hate the player, hate the MOCO.
O'yea who's your daddy!!!!!!!!!!!
 
But

I may be slow...he

But all of my bikes run all of the time...

How about you?  1 out of 5?

And exacty what is the basis of your claim of knowledge?

Give us the facts, not some hearsay.

Or are there facts?

Just sayin.

 


 

[skyhook]

I love being the troll, I just try not to be nasty about it...seems my ideas are not status quo around here and that's ok, I like this place and I love my "fixed" 110...I believe the crank runout issue has been blown out of proportion, there aren't that many bad ones if the bikes are ridden correctly...bob l. (fltri on some of the forums) is one of the best harley tuners in the world....he works for rc cycles heyward, ca...he started a couple threads on htt and vtf asking for first hand experience with crank/oil pump failure...the threads turned into shouting matches, but very few folks could say they had failures....I believe the percentage is way, way down there

[Talon]

You in that hottub drinking again?

 

Don't go there Chip, we're just getting that image out of our minds!!!

Craig

[Unbalanced]

I love being the troll, I just try not to be nasty about it...seems my ideas are not status quo around here and that's ok, I like this place and I love my "fixed" 110...I believe the crank runout issue has been blown out of proportion, there aren't that many bad ones if the bikes are ridden correctly...bob l. (fltri on some of the forums) is one of the best harley tuners in the world....he works for rc cycles heyward, ca...he started a couple threads on htt and vtf asking for first hand experience with crank/oil pump failure...the threads turned into shouting matches, but very few folks could say they had failures....I believe the percentage is way, way down there

Skyhook,

I personally know of several motor replacements and 2 are in my regular riding group of which neither are hot rodders.

My crank started out at .002 and began its climb up to .0035.   For purely the reference of first hand experience: I left the original cams in for a little while and had the run out checked it didnt move for about the first 8000 miles.   I then tried the freedom gear drive cams, my crank moved from .002 to .0024 then to .0028 then to .0034 at which point I removed the gear drives.   

I had the run out checked 2 x by the local Harley dealer and 2 x by Cycle Rama

It was not because of the runout that I removed them though.   It was because I wanted more power.  This is the point where I put in the 595 cams from Cycle Rama.  Once I put the chains back in my bike the crank did not change any further in regards to run out, but I did see a lot of scoring on the oil pump at that time.  Now even after that point in time, I had the lifter failure, where they replaced the entire cam chest so all was brandy new around 24k miles in there.   At 32k the oil pump showed a lot of wear.   

FWIW: If I decide to play around with the 110 motor in my 09, I will not be going back to gear drives.   Parasitic loss vs. gear lash and noise is a trade I am willing to give up on my TOURING BIKE.

[Twolanerider]

there aren't that many bad ones

To say there aren't "that many" bad ones is admitting there were a few.  We know there were several from the first hand accounts in just the community here.  Granted, they were far more common early in the engines' history and got better.  But Harley raised the run out tolerance for a reason.  And there's no logic in a reasoning suggesting that more run out is better.

Having said all that not "that many" does allow some.  For bottom end failures on motorcycles "some" is too many. 

Everyone recognizes that any part might fail at any time.  It's a risk we accept every time we throw a leg over and ride on.  This failure was more than that very rare one-off failure though.  Scored oil pumps or worse were happening in statistically significant numbers; especially early in the production lives of these motors.  One or two percent doesn't sound like much.  And perhaps it isn't.  At least it isn't until you park among 100 other bikes on a dealer lot some Saturday and wonder if yours will be one or two that might seize up on the ride home.

[skreminegul07]

I love being the troll, I just try not to be nasty about it...seems my ideas are not status quo around here and that's ok, I like this place and I love my "fixed" 110...I believe the crank runout issue has been blown out of proportion, there aren't that many bad ones if the bikes are ridden correctly...bob l. (fltri on some of the forums) is one of the best harley tuners in the world....he works for rc cycles heyward, ca...he started a couple threads on htt and vtf asking for first hand experience with crank/oil pump failure...the threads turned into shouting matches, but very few folks could say they had failures....I believe the percentage is way, way down there

Are F'in chittin me?  You are blaming the riders for the bad cranks?  Mine measured 20 thousands, bone stock (or stock bone) , 4000 miles, never taken over 4500 RPM.  What a stupid thing to say.

[Twolanerider]

Are F'in chittin me? 

Kind of thought some of those impacted might have comment .