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[BLM777]

Are you inferring that the crank issues were caused by engine modification by non dealers.  My crank measured .020 and it was 100% factory except for oil.  Don't go there.

Actually, I feel quite confident going anywhere I choose.  By way of further explanation, I don't need to infer anything.

If you'll reread the post your commenting on, the problems, or more importantly the lack thereof, was specifically directed at the '09 models and what appears to be an upgraded manufacturing process addressing the issues with the previous models and particularly the 07's. 

Am I inferring that half-a$$ed builds on the 09's, or any other year model will generate crank failures?  You bet I am, as well as the failures on bone stock bikes induced by riders who never had a clue what a stroker engine was or how it should be ridden until they stumbled into an HD shop and bought one. 

Obviously, you had a bad crank from the factory if the runout was .020.  Hopefully, HD replaced and repaired to your satisfaction.  Any assault to your sensitivities was not intended in discussing the probable fix on the '09 models.

[hard10]

Actually, I feel quite confident going anywhere I choose.  By way of further explanation, I don't need to infer anything.

If you'll reread the post your commenting on, the problems, or more importantly the lack thereof, was specifically directed at the '09 models and what appears to be an upgraded manufacturing process addressing the issues with the previous models and particularly the 07's. 

Am I inferring that half-a$$ed builds on the 09's, or any other year model will generate crank failures?  You bet I am, as well as the failures on bone stock bikes induced by riders who never had a clue what a stroker engine was or how it should be ridden until they stumbled into an HD shop and bought one. 

Obviously, you had a bad crank from the factory if the runout was .020.  Hopefully, HD replaced and repaired to your satisfaction.  Any assault to your sensitivities was not intended in discussing the probable fix on the '09 models.

I think to clear the air and settle tension, could you please define what you mean by "half-a$$ed builds". Are you referring to members here may have done themselves or are you saying it is something that came from the factory? I think the ambiguity is what causing problems.

[BLM777]

I think to clear the air and settle tension, could you please define what you mean by "half-a$$ed builds". Are you referring to members here may have done themselves or are you saying it is something that came from the factory? I think the ambiguity is what causing problems.

Much like trying to get Bill Clinton to define what the definition of "is ... "is", don't you think?    In short, to most folks a "build" refers to modifications made to a motor.  Conversely, manufacturing defects are faulty or poorly designed components used in the manufacture of the OEM motor.

As previously discussed ad nauseam in this and many other threads, HD had a run of poorly manufactured, defective cranks that failed.  Some were destined to fail regardless of how they were ridden (read continual lugging of a stroker motor) and caused several unsuspecting owners a great deal of time, effort and aggravation.  To my knowledge HD replaced the cranks under warranty.  Shouldn't have happened in the first place, but it did, chapter over.

My earlier post referred to the fact that there will be more crank failures (as well as other critical bottom end and drive train parts) as a result of owners modifying these motors for use or abuse in a way they were not intended or designed for.  Most common is attempting to significantly increase torque and horsepower by "building" the top end without any regard or thought to the crank or drive train, hopping on and hammering the chit out of their new "race engine".  No free lunch here .... if you want a race engine build one, ground up. 

My opinion is that the MoCo should be responsible for producing a product that functions without flaw for the purpose intended, no more or no less.  Conversely, if folks choose to ride the machine in a manner that gets 500 miles out of a rear tire they shouldn't be F'n the POS Company, assuming the tire was made in China, using cheap labor to blend the rubber or threatening to buy a Honda.   

'Bout as clear as I can make it .....

[hard10]

Much like trying to get Bill Clinton to define what the definition of "is ... "is", don't you think?    In short, to most folks a "build" refers to modifications made to a motor.  Conversely, manufacturing defects are faulty or poorly designed components used in the manufacture of the OEM motor.

As previously discussed ad nauseam in this and many other threads, HD had a run of poorly manufactured, defective cranks that failed.  Some were destined to fail regardless of how they were ridden (read continual lugging of a stroker motor) and caused several unsuspecting owners a great deal of time, effort and aggravation.  To my knowledge HD replaced the cranks under warranty.  Shouldn't have happened in the first place, but it did, chapter over.

My earlier post referred to the fact that there will be more crank failures (as well as other critical bottom end and drive train parts) as a result of owners modifying these motors for use or abuse in a way they were not intended or designed for.  Most common is attempting to significantly increase torque and horsepower by "building" the top end without any regard or thought to the crank or drive train, hopping on and hammering the chit out of their new "race engine".  No free lunch here .... if you want a race engine build one, ground up. 

My opinion is that the MoCo should be responsible for producing a product that functions without flaw for the purpose intended, no more or no less.  Conversely, if folks choose to ride the machine in a manner that gets 500 miles out of a rear tire they shouldn't be F'n the POS Company, assuming the tire was made in China, using cheap labor to blend the rubber or threatening to buy a Honda.   

'Bout as clear as I can make it .....

That's what I thought you were referring to and I'm glad that we cleared the air, so to speak. I do think however that from most of what I have read on this forum that the majority of people here are not trying to build a "race only" type of engine. The first step in any modification, at least for me, was to eliminate any excessive heat problems that are inherent in the 110". While some want more Tq & Hp, I think there are only a very few here that have gone the extent that say Hoist! has gone through. Howie knew what he wanted and he knew enough (?) about engines to have someone do it. I don't think that most would go to the extend that he did. I think most just want a running engine with no problems.

[Black Diamond]

Much like trying to get Bill Clinton to define what the definition of "is ... "is", don't you think?    In short, to most folks a "build" refers to modifications made to a motor.  Conversely, manufacturing defects are faulty or poorly designed components used in the manufacture of the OEM motor.

As previously discussed ad nauseam in this and many other threads, HD had a run of poorly manufactured, defective cranks that failed.  Some were destined to fail regardless of how they were ridden (read continual lugging of a stroker motor) and caused several unsuspecting owners a great deal of time, effort and aggravation.  To my knowledge HD replaced the cranks under warranty.  Shouldn't have happened in the first place, but it did, chapter over.

My earlier post referred to the fact that there will be more crank failures (as well as other critical bottom end and drive train parts) as a result of owners modifying these motors for use or abuse in a way they were not intended or designed for.  Most common is attempting to significantly increase torque and horsepower by "building" the top end without any regard or thought to the crank or drive train, hopping on and hammering the chit out of their new "race engine".  No free lunch here .... if you want a race engine build one, ground up. 

My opinion is that the MoCo should be responsible for producing a product that functions without flaw for the purpose intended, no more or no less.  Conversely, if folks choose to ride the machine in a manner that gets 500 miles out of a rear tire they shouldn't be F'n the POS Company, assuming the tire was made in China, using cheap labor to blend the rubber or threatening to buy a Honda.   

'Bout as clear as I can make it .....

I agree with most of the above. If you want to play, like I'm doing, you have to pay. If your going to romp on it, beef up the bottom end too. Besides I tend to keep my bikes forever.

As I stated before, I hope the MoCo has corrected the cylinder issue. The welfare of my favorite past time company is important to me. WOuld also help the resell value of existing bikes if I ever figure out how to let one go to someone other than my kids.  

JW

[skreminegul07]

Much like trying to get Bill Clinton to define what the definition of "is ... "is", don't you think?    In short, to most folks a "build" refers to modifications made to a motor.  Conversely, manufacturing defects are faulty or poorly designed components used in the manufacture of the OEM motor.

As previously discussed ad nauseam in this and many other threads, HD had a run of poorly manufactured, defective cranks that failed.  Some were destined to fail regardless of how they were ridden (read continual lugging of a stroker motor) and caused several unsuspecting owners a great deal of time, effort and aggravation.  To my knowledge HD replaced the cranks under warranty.  Shouldn't have happened in the first place, but it did, chapter over.

My earlier post referred to the fact that there will be more crank failures (as well as other critical bottom end and drive train parts) as a result of owners modifying these motors for use or abuse in a way they were not intended or designed for.  Most common is attempting to significantly increase torque and horsepower by "building" the top end without any regard or thought to the crank or drive train, hopping on and hammering the chit out of their new "race engine".  No free lunch here .... if you want a race engine build one, ground up. 

My opinion is that the MoCo should be responsible for producing a product that functions without flaw for the purpose intended, no more or no less.  Conversely, if folks choose to ride the machine in a manner that gets 500 miles out of a rear tire they shouldn't be F'n the POS Company, assuming the tire was made in China, using cheap labor to blend the rubber or threatening to buy a Honda.   

'Bout as clear as I can make it .....

Every once in a while, someone jumps in on this subject (usually not a 110" owner) and spews that we caused this problem.  Well I guess we did because we bought these bikes.  This makes some, me included, overly sensitive to this issue we are living through.
You can say and believe what you want, just try to remember many of us just want a reliable ride.  We do the mods to remove the heat and add longevity to these machines, not to race.  We should not have to add money to the most expensive bikes just so we can ride them and then be slapped in the face when they break because we "modified" the motors.
If you want to know how I know this, ask, I'll show you the letter sent to my lawyer from HD's legal department after HD inspected my bike. One of the modifications listed included the "high flow air cleaner" which this dufus didn't realize was shipped on the bike from York, it's 100% stock.
Am I overly sensitive, yes, but I believe I have a right to be.

[BLM777]

Every once in a while, someone jumps in on this subject (usually not a 110" owner) and spews that we caused this problem.  Well I guess we did because we bought these bikes.  This makes some, me included, overly sensitive to this issue we are living through.
You can say and believe what you want, just try to remember many of us just want a reliable ride.  We do the mods to remove the heat and add longevity to these machines, not to race.  We should not have to add money to the most expensive bikes just so we can ride them and then be slapped in the face when they break because we "modified" the motors.
If you want to know how I know this, ask, I'll show you the letter sent to my lawyer from HD's legal department after HD inspected my bike. One of the modifications listed included the "high flow air cleaner" which this dufus didn't realize was shipped on the bike from York, it's 100% stock.
Am I overly sensitive, yes, but I believe I have a right to be.

OK ... I'll ask .... did HD refuse to repair your bike?  If they did repair it, is it now in operating condition?  Seems this might get the whole saga some closure ....

[skreminegul07]

OK ... I'll ask .... did HD refuse to repair your bike?  If they did repair it, is it now in operating condition?  Seems this might get the whole saga some closure ....

They refused to take the lemon back to the orchard.  There won't be closure until 1) I can put 10,000 mikes on this engine without a leak, and 2) HD needs to also offer free extended warranty on at least the motor to make up for all the inconvenience, loss of riding, resale value, and the other negatives that their top customers have experienced. HD did step up with the bad cam bearings in 2000 and I expected no less with a problem of this magnitude.

[grc]

There is a huge difference between the so-called "stage 1" mods done by most owners (and heavily promoted and sold by H-D and their dealers), and the major internal modifications done by some.  Someone doing simple pipe, air cleaner, and tuning device mods shouldn't have to worry that these minor things create a loophole for an unscrupulous manufacturer to avoid responsibility for p-poor quality.  If a Harley-Davidson motorcycle is so poorly designed and manufactured that it cannot tolerate the installation of a set of pipes and air cleaner, I suggest folks need to know that up front and then refuse to spend another dime with that company.  On the other hand, anyone who does serious internal mods to significantly increase power should do so with the knowledge that they are taking a risk.  If they want 130 hp and torque out of that engine, they will need to be intelligent enough to beef up the rest of the drivetrain.  If they don't and it fails, they need to suck it up and admit it was their own fault, not Harley's. 

All manufactured items have a certain failure rate, since nothing made by man is perfect.  As long as that failure rate is small, and the manufacturer is quick to stand up and fix the problem, most people can accept the occasional failure as a normal part of life.  However, when that manufacturer tries to duck it's responsibilities by blaming the customer, especially when they know their product has a real problem, it is totally justifiable for that customer to pitch a bitch, sue the bastards, and spread the word far and wide.  If H-D and it's apologists don't want people to bitch, I suggest the answer is to spend more time fixing quality and design issues and less time blaming the customer for known product deficiencies. JMHO

btw, the fact that the MoCo eventually makes a repair after all their arrogant posturing and finger pointing doesn't make it all better.  The customer experience shouldn't include being insulted and threatened at the whim of some ignorant corporate jerk clerk.

Jerry

[skreminegul07]

There is a huge difference between the so-called "stage 1" mods done by most owners (and heavily promoted and sold by H-D and their dealers), and the major internal modifications done by some.  Someone doing simple pipe, air cleaner, and tuning device mods shouldn't have to worry that these minor things create a loophole for an unscrupulous manufacturer to avoid responsibility for p-poor quality.  If a Harley-Davidson motorcycle is so poorly designed and manufactured that it cannot tolerate the installation of a set of pipes and air cleaner, I suggest folks need to know that up front and then refuse to spend another dime with that company.  On the other hand, anyone who does serious internal mods to significantly increase power should do so with the knowledge that they are taking a risk.  If they want 130 hp and torque out of that engine, they will need to be intelligent enough to beef up the rest of the drivetrain.  If they don't and it fails, they need to suck it up and admit it was their own fault, not Harley's. 

All manufactured items have a certain failure rate, since nothing made by man is perfect.  As long as that failure rate is small, and the manufacturer is quick to stand up and fix the problem, most people can accept the occasional failure as a normal part of life.  However, when that manufacturer tries to duck it's responsibilities by blaming the customer, especially when they know their product has a real problem, it is totally justifiable for that customer to pitch a bitch, sue the bastards, and spread the word far and wide.  If H-D and it's apologists don't want people to bitch, I suggest the answer is to spend more time fixing quality and design issues and less time blaming the customer for known product deficiencies. JMHO

btw, the fact that the MoCo eventually makes a repair after all their arrogant posturing and finger pointing doesn't make it all better.  The customer experience shouldn't include being insulted and threatened at the whim of some ignorant corporate jerk clerk.

Jerry

Yup, what he said.  You cannot deny, deny, deny, and then say here's the fix. (which we all know is not the right fix)

[BLM777]

They refused to take the lemon back to the orchard.  There won't be closure until 1) I can put 10,000 mikes on this engine without a leak, and 2) HD needs to also offer free extended warranty on at least the motor to make up for all the inconvenience, loss of riding, resale value, and the other negatives that their top customers have experienced. HD did step up with the bad cam bearings in 2000 and I expected no less with a problem of this magnitude.

Good to hear the MoCo stood behind the repairs.  Wouldn't hold my breath on the "damages" demand or the resale value reparations which you have so ardently attempted to destroy.  Good luck ... hope it all works out.

[skreminegul07]

Good to hear the MoCo stood behind the repairs.  Wouldn't hold my breath on the "damages" demand or the resale value reparations which you have so ardently attempted to destroy.  Good luck ... hope it all works out.

Please read what I wrote.  I am not looking for damages.  I was looking for a buyback.  As far as closure, I am looking for 10,000 miles to prove its fixed, and an extension of the warranty to make up for all the bad will created by this poorly designed motor.  HD did that in 2000 with the cam bearings.  The extended warranty will help overcome the negatively biased resale value if the new buyer knew that HD is standing behind their product, not the seller.

[Hoist!]

There is a huge difference between the so-called "stage 1" mods done by most owners (and heavily promoted and sold by H-D and their dealers), and the major internal modifications done by some.  Someone doing simple pipe, air cleaner, and tuning device mods shouldn't have to worry that these minor things create a loophole for an unscrupulous manufacturer to avoid responsibility for p-poor quality.  If a Harley-Davidson motorcycle is so poorly designed and manufactured that it cannot tolerate the installation of a set of pipes and air cleaner, I suggest folks need to know that up front and then refuse to spend another dime with that company.  On the other hand, anyone who does serious internal mods to significantly increase power should do so with the knowledge that they are taking a risk.  If they want 130 hp and torque out of that engine, they will need to be intelligent enough to beef up the rest of the drivetrain.  If they don't and it fails, they need to suck it up and admit it was their own fault, not Harley's. 

All manufactured items have a certain failure rate, since nothing made by man is perfect.  As long as that failure rate is small, and the manufacturer is quick to stand up and fix the problem, most people can accept the occasional failure as a normal part of life.  However, when that manufacturer tries to duck it's responsibilities by blaming the customer, especially when they know their product has a real problem, it is totally justifiable for that customer to pitch a bitch, sue the bastards, and spread the word far and wide.  If H-D and it's apologists don't want people to bitch, I suggest the answer is to spend more time fixing quality and design issues and less time blaming the customer for known product deficiencies. JMHO

btw, the fact that the MoCo eventually makes a repair after all their arrogant posturing and finger pointing doesn't make it all better.  The customer experience shouldn't include being insulted and threatened at the whim of some ignorant corporate jerk clerk.

Jerry

HeHe!!! Leave it to Jerry!!! This has been said about 1000 times before regarding these engines, but I've NEVER seen it worded better!!! You da man Jerry!!!

Hoist!

[hard10]

There is a huge difference between the so-called "stage 1" mods done by most owners (and heavily promoted and sold by H-D and their dealers), and the major internal modifications done by some.  Someone doing simple pipe, air cleaner, and tuning device mods shouldn't have to worry that these minor things create a loophole for an unscrupulous manufacturer to avoid responsibility for p-poor quality.  If a Harley-Davidson motorcycle is so poorly designed and manufactured that it cannot tolerate the installation of a set of pipes and air cleaner, I suggest folks need to know that up front and then refuse to spend another dime with that company.  On the other hand, anyone who does serious internal mods to significantly increase power should do so with the knowledge that they are taking a risk.  If they want 130 hp and torque out of that engine, they will need to be intelligent enough to beef up the rest of the drivetrain.  If they don't and it fails, they need to suck it up and admit it was their own fault, not Harley's. 

All manufactured items have a certain failure rate, since nothing made by man is perfect.  As long as that failure rate is small, and the manufacturer is quick to stand up and fix the problem, most people can accept the occasional failure as a normal part of life.  However, when that manufacturer tries to duck it's responsibilities by blaming the customer, especially when they know their product has a real problem, it is totally justifiable for that customer to pitch a bitch, sue the bastards, and spread the word far and wide.  If H-D and it's apologists don't want people to bitch, I suggest the answer is to spend more time fixing quality and design issues and less time blaming the customer for known product deficiencies. JMHO

btw, the fact that the MoCo eventually makes a repair after all their arrogant posturing and finger pointing doesn't make it all better.  The customer experience shouldn't include being insulted and threatened at the whim of some ignorant corporate jerk clerk.

Jerry

Very well said. My only comment would be if the company is selling a product that they know can't handle pipes, air cleaners, etc. why sell those items in their own catalog?

[skreminegul07]

Very well said. My only comment would be if the company is selling a product that they know can't handle pipes, air cleaners, etc. why sell those items in their own catalog?

The real irony here is that we all know that the stage 1 modifications and a tune actually increase the life of the motors, mileage and power.