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[09S/E roadglide]

host what exactly is crank run out? my mechanic has used this term a few times and i would like to understand. he also has said something about pins in the crank shearing after the motor has been built, so he has been welding them so they don't break. (all the new motors not just 110's).thanks 

[Godeater]

  Exactly my point.  ITS NOT A GASKET ISSUE, DON'T BE FOOL OR FOOLED.  The cyl liners move.  This is the very basic thing on a harley motor, and yet they are bad.  Nothing to do with gaskets Nothing!!
There is a interlockng bore in the cylinder before the liner is instered.  If done right no problem, if done wrong have a Screamin Eagle 110/leaker.  Its amazing, the folks I know that replace there stock jugs with after markets 110's have NEVER had another issue. 

Crank run out is like well have a high speed drill with a bent shaft.  Just try and hold it straight and feel how much it shakes your whole body around.  Now imagine having a oil pump on one end and your stator and pri drive on the other while that is running out of tru at 1000-6000+ rpm.  Sooner or later something will break do to extra pressure on the weaker roller they replaced the timkin with or your cam plate/oil pump will go.  They are making them cheaper by charging us more.  Then putting a 50 cent bandaid on a gaping hole of an issue and selling it to you as a fix.  I love my Harley but doesn't mean I will bend over for the MOCO.  Some like it that way I guess.  Never believe they don't know hwat the issue is with the 110's.

[Godeater]

Sorry about the bad grammer and spelling, typed out on a black berry while doing 10 other things.

[Hoist!]

  Exactly my point.  ITS NOT A GASKET ISSUE, DON'T BE FOOL OR FOOLED.  The cyl liners move.  This is the very basic thing on a harley motor, and yet they are bad.  Nothing to do with gaskets Nothing!!
There is a interlockng bore in the cylinder before the liner is instered.  If done right no problem, if done wrong have a Screamin Eagle 110/leaker.  Its amazing, the folks I know that replace there stock jugs with after markets 110's have NEVER had another issue. 

Crank run out is like well have a high speed drill with a bent shaft.  Just try and hold it straight and feel how much it shakes your whole body around.  Now imagine having a oil pump on one end and your stator and pri drive on the other while that is running out of tru at 1000-6000+ rpm.  Sooner or later something will break do to extra pressure on the weaker roller they replaced the timkin with or your cam plate/oil pump will go.  They are making them cheaper by charging us more.  Then putting a 50 cent bandaid on a gaping hole of an issue and selling it to you as a fix.  I love my Harley but doesn't mean I will bend over for the MOCO.  Some like it that way I guess.  Never believe they don't know hwat the issue is with the 110's.

My new hero!!! Thanks for explaining it for me! Couldn't have said it ALL better myself! I was starting to think that somehow the B & O Cool Aid got mysteriously dumped in the CVOHarley water supply!

Hoist!

[Black Diamond]

Unfortunately the lessons of life are generally learned when they happen to you. Until then it's just stuff you read on the internet...and we know you can't believe that! 





Oh BTW...Axtell cylinder liners don't seem to move!

JW

[1abastarsmda]

And crank runout extended from 0.003" to 0.012" since the 110 was first introduced! Yes, it's on the 96's also. But these big inch motors needed extra care when being designed, which these engines did not receive until they were failing left and right!

Hoist!

So, is crank runout still a problem or not?  I remember having someone mention that I should have that checked before.  Does extending from .003" to .012" solve the problem or is this still an issue?

[miker]

Old long shaft stock will be used up and is allowed to 12thou according to HD ....
There is a tech bulletin for the 09's on my other computer, I'll post it tomorrow unless someone here has it.  So yes 12thou is still allowable even on "early" 09's...

[Hoist!]

Old long shaft stock will be used up and is allowed to 12thou according to HD ....
There is a tech bulletin for the 09's on my other computer, I'll post it tomorrow unless someone here has it.  So yes 12thou is still allowable even on "early" 09's...

So, is crank runout still a problem or not?  I remember having someone mention that I should have that checked before.  Does extending from .003" to .012" solve the problem or is this still an issue?

And that does not mean it's not, or won't become an issue. No builder in their right mind will build a motor at 0.012" crank runout. Just cause their new cam tensioner system might be able to withstand that much wobble, doesn't mean the oil pump and stator can take that kinda abuse! And you'll really feel that kinda runout in the form of vibration too! So according to HD your safe. But in real life.....

STF!!!

Hoist!

[1abastarsmda]

So, is there a fix for the runout?  I'm now understanding that what they have done is actually increase the tolerance to allow for worse runout as acceptable, when the ideal would obviously then be zero runout.  They then modified the camshaft tensioner to deal with the less than ideal runout that they are putting out in these engines, but haven't taken into account that there are other parts involved that probably can't take the extra wobble.  I think the drill bit example explained this concept pretty well, and now I am seeing what the numbers represent.  I'm assuming that there is some sort of gauge that can measure the runout.  Is there some sort of adjustment that can be made to bring it to approaching zero and is this something that a dealer can work with?  It is difficult to find a competent shop when you don't have a real good understanding of how everything in the engine works, and thus don't know the right questions to ask in order to judge their competency.

[Hoist!]

So, is there a fix for the runout?  I'm now understanding that what they have done is actually increase the tolerance to allow for worse runout as acceptable, when the ideal would obviously then be zero runout.  They then modified the camshaft tensioner to deal with the less than ideal runout that they are putting out in these engines, but haven't taken into account that there are other parts involved that probably can't take the extra wobble.  I think the drill bit example explained this concept pretty well, and now I am seeing what the numbers represent.  I'm assuming that there is some sort of gauge that can measure the runout.  Is there some sort of adjustment that can be made to bring it to approaching zero and is this something that a dealer can work with?  It is difficult to find a competent shop when you don't have a real good understanding of how everything in the engine works, and thus don't know the right questions to ask in order to judge their competency.

You've got the concept. But fixing it isn't simple. The crank is inside the bottom of the engine cases. The engine must be removed and completely disassembled to repair/replace a crank. Usually taken care of by replacing it with proven parts like an S&S crank, or having the stocker removed and sent out for trueing & balancing then having it welded. Either way, you're looking at an entire engine rebuild to correct this issue.

Runout is measured at the end of the pinion shaft on the cam chest side, and on the engine drive side. The entire cam chest gets removed for the pinion side check, and the ENTIRE Primary side gets remove to check crank drive side runout. A dial indicator setup on some type of jig, allows you to measure the runout on these shafts. But that only tells ya what you have. It can not be corrected from these locations. You also have to pay them to check it for you. Only if it's out of spec will you then not have to pay for that. They owe ya a new engine then!

And no, the design has not changed as of current that I'm aware of. Cheapo roller bearing instead of Timken bearings, and cheapo pressed Chinese crank that can and has scissored and taken out engine parts and locked up entire engines, with nothing to lock it in w/o the Timken! Leave it at stock HP, you're prolly OK, if it's good to start with. But these cranks can't take some of the mods that get done around here though!

Hoist!

[LarryB]

I ran my crank out once,  and I'll tell you, not something you want to do with too much frequency.  Find it serves one better to either ease it out, or space out the running. Good thing is that at my age, I still have the crank to run out.  

[09S/E roadglide]

thanks for the explaination. i understand now.
as far as you go larryB you know all that crankin comes out of a pill bottle !!

[serghaven]

Hoist, Thanks for the lesson. When you say "leave it stock and you probably be ok" does this include just removing the the cc,changing the exhaust adding a sert, do you think that will be ok?

[Black Diamond]

Hoist, Thanks for the lesson. When you say "leave it stock and you probably be ok" does this include just removing the the cc,changing the exhaust adding a sert, do you think that will be ok?

Stop it or you'll confuse Howie.....That is stock to him! 

JW

[Hoist!]

Stop it or you'll confuse Howie.....That is stock to him! 

JW

Hoist, Thanks for the lesson. When you say "leave it stock and you probably be ok" does this include just removing the the cc,changing the exhaust adding a sert, do you think that will be ok?

HeHe!!! Yeap, that's stock to me. If these 110's are really fixed now, I'd do exhaust, intake, and a good tune, and ride the chit out of it. Either it'll hold up or won't. If you have to open the motor for any reason, I'd do the changes then. Why not see if it'll last or not first! If it seems OK, you can throw a set of cams in later. I wouldn't even check the runout right now, or take the motor apart in any way. Stage I and ride it. If these 110's are fixed, you should be OK. Time will tell!

Hoist!