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[DCFIREMANN]

Man I go away for a day and look what happens. John thanks for the explanataion.

I talked to Danny from Zippers yesterday at York in depth about the ECM. I also told him about the issues on this site. I am glad John got on here and explained the operation of the unit. Danny is going to e mail me a couple of things that I will be able to post on here to even better explain the operation  (not that it needs to be) John did an excellent job of explaining the unit. Twolane PM me later with a phone number I have some printed info for you. I saw quite a few people buying the Thunder Max yesterday and no body returned them. It is a great base to build on. They (Zippers) are starting a training program for dealers in the near future. So finding someone to dial your ECM will get a lot easier in the near future.

Also a little off topic. The trip to York testerday was great! Don believe it or not it was quite warm for a change. Saw a lot of old friends and met some new ones. The crowd was way down and it was easy to move around and see everything you wanted to.


Be Safe

THE DAWG

[grc]

The following is an editorial comment that only reflects the opinions of the writer.  No offense is intended toward the suppliers or users of any particular products:

This is yet another of those areas where every supplier of whatever EFI enhancement system, be it add-on to the stock ECM or complete replacement for the ECM, would have you believe only their system is the best answer.  Similar to the True Track vs Ride Str8 discussions.  A good adage to follow is the old "never believe what you read, and only about half of what you see".  The best system, as far as I'm concerned, doesn't currently exist for H-D engines.  That would be a closed loop system with mass airflow sensor and oxygen sensor(s), just like the system in a passenger car.  The speed density system using a MAP sensor (Delphi) should give a decent approximation of load and air flow assuming the cam hasn't been changed to one with a large amount of overlap, and assuming the MAP sensor as incorporated by H-D actually provides reliable information (definitely not a given).  The Alpha-N systems rely only on throttle position and rpm to "guesstimate" load and air flow - without a closed loop feedback system to adjust to current conditions what you have is a best guess scenario like any other open loop system.  There are aftermarket closed loop systems available, at $700 and up, but I haven't seen any advertised so far that use mass airflow or MAP.  So in the end, what we basically have as viable choices for our bikes are "solutions" that may or may not be any better than other solutions.  It all depends on riding style, rider expectations, and how much additional cash a person wishes to continue to throw at searching for the "answer".  

The sad part of this whole thing is, if H-D did a decent job on the stock set up, many of us wouldn't need to waste any cash to have a decent running bike.  Not everyone wants to play racer with an 850 pound bagger; we just want the damn thing to start and run smoothly.  When was the last time you had to buy aftermarket add-ons like a PC to make your new car start and run without driveability issues like stalling, surging, etc.?  I know I haven't since the advent of closed-loop EFI.

JMHO - Jerry

[pappy2]

I need to chime in here.  I have the Zippers Throttle body, ECM AC and D&D fat cats installed on my 05 Banana.  I did a dyno run that was very dissappointing and like the ass I can sometimes be, made a major brewhah about it.  Zippers did send a couple of slightly modified maps to me and I picked the one that felt the best to me which was actually a little richer than the first map.  I now firmly believe that the bike was not warmed up sufficiently when I ran the dyno and I am remiss in getting it redone.   The problem I have is that I plain love the way the thing runs and it scats past all the other bikes I ride with easily.  The whole dyno experience was really a waste of time in my opinion as the dyno does not ride the thing, I do.  The overall response in the entire RPM range when the outside air is cold, hot, humid, dry whatever is excellent.  There did seem to be a flattening out of the torque curve around 3200 but when I let the bike get good and warm (5 -10 minutes), it goes away and just plain scoots.  I am in contact with Zippers as well as DC for recommendations for internal engine improvements because just like everyone else, I just plain love power and want more just for grins.  I got exactly what I asked for the first time which is a lot of power with a reliable cool running engine here in South Florida.   [smiley=oops.gif] I officially apologize to Zippers for my initial reaction and hope that others can look past this and give the thing a try if they want the kind of riding satisfaction that I have enjoyed.  

I am a very happy Zippers customer now and hope to keep building on the success we have had to date.  JP

[smiley=banana.gif] [smiley=banana.gif] [smiley=banana.gif]

[Unbalanced]

Pappy,

That is good to hear only it does not really help me at all.   I spoke to John at Zippers and they dont have maps for my road king w/ the S&S motor at this time.   Thus I need a tuner in my area to even explore this as a possibility.    The guy I recommended to them is in the process now of trying to become a site here in central florida that is authorized by Zippers to work on the Thundermax.   He is also going to be across the street from the New Harley Davidson in Ormond doing Tuning for RaceTuner and Power Commander.

[grc]

[Unbalanced]

Jerry,

You make a good point, but on the otherside I use the dyno to be sure I am not running to lean or to rich and to help make sure I am not destroying an engine due to changes I have made to get the driveability where i want it and your right it is only because they run so poorly from Harley.   Its not always about a dyno sheet to hang on a wall, but to be sure what I have changed doesnt ruin what I have all this money invested in.
Its also a guide to be sure that what I paid for is what was delivered in most cases a check and balance for me.  

[Twolanerider]

Jerry,

You make a good point, but on the otherside I use the dyno to be sure I am not running to lean or to rich and to help make sure I am not destroying an engine due to changes I have made to get the driveability where i want it and your right it is only because they run so poorly from Harley.

[DCFIREMANN]

Pappy I am so glad you are happy. I know like you I really love the driveabilty of my bike with the Zippers ECM. To prove a point I am going to Myrtle next week and I am hooking up with a few people from this site. I am going to take the bike down to the inlet and put it on the dyno. It will be just for grins but before I pull this motor apart I would like a baseline, and to let the people on here know what exactally the set up can do.

Unbalanced stand by they are working on getting people all around the country turned over on the software. It will take time as they have a full plate right now. I am going down to see them in a couple of weeks and was told I will get some time learning the system. Which by the way they say it is very easy. The problem with the new system a lot of people are not comfortable with working with it for lack of knowledge.  

GRC amen brother!!!!!! I like it for tuning only not braging rights. Hell if you ask me about mine it only spun the wheel at 50 h/p RIGHT???

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[Unbalanced]

TLR (Don)

All I can say to that is  [smiley=worthless.gif]

I want to see this in the worst way ....

[JimsSEEG]

Pappy -

Does your alarm / sirem still function the same??? Got to wondering about that today..

Jim

[pappy2]

everything works fine.  Remember that I put the kuryakyn panaceal light package on with the load adjusters so that may impact this in some way as I had these on before I put the zippers stuff on.  Everything works great except the little chrome bits on the controls for the radio that HD dealer messed up when they put them on and still working on my third visit.  No extra charges just hassles.  The cruise and all the stuff work ok now but the radio contol only goes up not down so I have to pass all the stations to get to the next lowest one.  NBD.  JP [smiley=banana.gif]

[JimsSEEG]

Thanks Pappy!

Wanted  to check... I use my alarm a lot when parking at work, so tha would be a big deal for me... The rest is like you said, no big deal...

[grc]

Unbalanced,

Sorry if I got a little carried away about the dyno tuning thing - I guess I'm still harboring ill feelings about the way the bike ran when it was totally stock.  I agree that major modifications, especially internal mods, will require tuning to make sure your running safe A/F ratios and to make sure the mods gave you the improvement you paid for.  I just don't think it should be necessary to dyno tune a stock motorcycle to make it run right, nor do I think it is ethical (or even legal) for H-D to put such poor running bikes on the road and then charge the customer to fix the problem (calibration downloads, racetuners, etc.)  That stuff is all fine for folks who want to modify their bikes, but does nothing for those who wish to keep it stock.

Now that I've had my monthly "venting" experience, I'll shut up on that subject for awhile.

Jerry

[Unbalanced]

Grc (Jerry)

No worries    If you happen to make it down to Biketoberfest or Bikeweek or a trip down here to the central florida area send me a PM if you would like to hook up for a drink or want a tour guide.

-harry

[JimsSEEG]

Got a call from John today, and after about 30 min of conversation, ordered my ECM which shoiuld be here next week. I'll post an update when I get it installed.

Jim