Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[KozyK]

Looking to replace my V&H Fuel Pack. Understand T-Max maps out in more detail. Who runs what?

[Twolanerider]

Looking to replace my V&H Fuel Pack. Understand T-Max maps out in more detail. Who runs what?

You don't (or shouldn't) care what you run.  You should care what the best tuner you're willing to travel to wants to use.

[AXIL]

  I cant vote one way or the other. both are good tuning devices in the hands of some one who knows how to use
them. check around in your area and find some one you feel comfertable with a give them a try. the sert can be
installed and tuned in about three to four hours. the thunder max can be installed in two hours then two hours of
tuning. both are good but it's your chose.      axil

[RickC]

You don't (or shouldn't) care what you run.  You should care what the best tuner you're willing to travel to wants to use.

Unless, of course, you will be doing your own tuning...

[Twolanerider]

Unless, of course, you will be doing your own tuning...

Sure. But that's not as likely with the SERT.  Even with the T-Max we've collectively learned that if you don't have a very good map from mftr's supply (and a very many of them aren't) it still needs a dyno to get you started well.

We need HD to release the Screamin' Eagle Magic Tuning Wand^tm.  Click heels three times, wave wand through exhaust gasses, say "presto tune-o" and, voila, instant tune .

[RickC]

Sure. But that's not as likely with the SERT.  Even with the T-Max we've collectively learned that if you don't have a very good map from mftr's supply (and a very many of them aren't) it still needs a dyno to get you started well.

We need HD to release the Screamin' Eagle Magic Tuning Wand^tm.  Click heels three times, wave wand through exhaust gasses, say "presto tune-o" and, voila, instant tune .

We'd have a line from here to tomorrow waiting to buy that one!

[grc]

Why limit yourself to those two particular choices?  There are plenty of other options out there, such as MasterTune which is similar to but possibly superior to the SERT/SEST, the Power Commander, etc. 

I personally don't like the T-Max and the customer disservice from Zipper's, but that's just me.  Like the others have said, if you want a professional tune then the first order of business is to find the guy who is going to do the tuning.  That would be the person to ask about which device to use. 

Jerry

[Steve Cole]

Sure. But that's not as likely with the SERT.  Even with the T-Max we've collectively learned that if you don't have a very good map from mftr's supply (and a very many of them aren't) it still needs a dyno to get you started well.

We need HD to release the Screamin' Eagle Magic Tuning Wand^tm.  Click heels three times, wave wand through exhaust gasses, say "presto tune-o" and, voila, instant tune .

I will most likely get in trouble for this but what you've asked for is already out for all closed loop HD bikes, it's called Mastertune. It does take some work on you part but if you have a laptop and some time you can tune it yourself and get very good results. If you have an open loop bike your going to need to know how to tune still.

[rheiner]

I will most likely get in trouble for this but what you've asked for is already out for all closed loop HD bikes, it's called Mastertune. It does take some work on you part but if you have a laptop and some time you can tune it yourself and get very good results. If you have an open loop bike your going to need to know how to tune still.

Steve,

I've never asked you this, but how do you tune in open loop yourself without using a dyno? Is the easiest way that will get you somewhat close, to just use the last good table data in closed loop at the right and bottom of the VE tables and use that last good number by filling it into the VE tables as the table progresses to open loop to the right (throttle position) and down (RPM)? If so, that seems pretty crude and unreliable, but that's what I've done per the instructions in the help files.

Randall

[KozyK]

Can't get on this site often enough. Thanks for all your replies.
Have found a speed shop in town recommended by many. One tech in particular to dyno tune my 110. He wants the bike minimum 2 days and says the mapping itself is a 8 -10 hour process done correctly. He is recommending the TTS version of HD SERT!

[KozyK]

Randall, go to the "TTS harley tuner" discussion started by grahn1967 to see your answer from Steve Cole

[rheiner]

Randall, go to the "TTS harley tuner" discussion started by grahn1967 to see your answer from Steve Cole

I've read every post that Steve Cole wrote in the grahn1967 discussion and the only thing I could find about tuning your bike in open loop, or wide open throttle without a dyno, is this quote below written by him. If this is the only way to do it, by trial and error, I'd gladly pay a few hundred bucks for a WOT tune on a dyno rather than spending all day riding with a laptop and collecting data, then reviewing it and making more manual adjustments (guesstimates) to the front and rear VE tables to see if HP and torque increased from the previous VE data inputs I made. Even if you get a slight increase in torque and HP from your previous run, how do you know if you improved the front cylinder and hurt the rear cyclinder, yet the net increase was positive? It seems to me that the best approach is to have it dyno tuned for open loop then use Data Master, V-tune, and Mastertune programs for all adjustments less than 60% throttle.:

 Re: TTS harley tuner
« Reply #54 on: August 11, 2008, 06:42:03 PM » Quote  by Steve Cole

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Once the VE's are properly adjusted using the AFR table to adjust the mixture is all you need to do. You can use a narrow band sensors if you like but it is really unnecessary. If you have a dyno and are going to adjust for peak power you move the mixture at WOT using the PE AFR table until you get peak power. Once there richen the engine back up about .5 AFR, this is to keep the engine from overheating and build in some safety. Without a dyno it is much the same. Open DataMaster and do a dyno recording. Ride the bike in 3rd or 4th gear which ever you have enough open road for. Lug the motor down to 2000 RPM and go WOT for as long as you can. If you can get to 6200 then back it down. Save the recorded data and view it in Datamaster. Find your acceleration run in the viewer and zoom in on it so you can see the start and stop of that area on the screen. Go under the "View" tab and open the "Dyno Graph" Select your bike and enter your weight in the Rider+ Payload area. Then select which gear you made you run in. Click "OK" when completed. Now on the main Graph click the courser to a position just after you started the run, click the "Set Start Rec" button. Now go to the end of the of the acceleration and move the courser to just before the end of the run, click the "Set End Rec" button. Now look at the lower right side of the Dyno screen and click the "Plot Data" button. This will give you a graph of the estimate torque and Hp of your combination. Now the numbers are close provided you have given the calculator all the proper information but to be honest it really does not matter for what we are trying to do here. Now that you have a baseline you can change the tune and then rerun the test again but make sure you use the exact same setup in the calculator and the exact same gear as before. If you have made an improvement it will show an increase and if you went backwards it will show that as well. If you point on the dyno graph and click on it you will get a line and it will give the HP and Torque at that spot. You can move the line just by clicking on a different spot on the graph. So you have the tools with our product to do a complete tuneup fo your combination.

[rheiner]

I'm not saying the TTS programs are weak or bad, in fact I think it's the best product on the market. It's a great piece of harware and software to tune your bike in closed loop bias, which is where I ride my bike 98% of the time. So if I add mods to my bike I can retune my bike unlimited times.

It's just that the program seems to have limitations with the end user's ability to easily tune the bike for peak HP and torque, which is when your're in wide open throttle, without taking your bike to an expert and put on a dyno jet (more money). I understand it may not be posible to self tune in WOT but users need to realize that. At least if you have your bike dyno tuned for WOT using the TTS at the dyno tune center, it will cost half the price of a full tune and you can then tune the rest of the settlings yourself using V-tune. Overall, I'm very pleased with the TTS products.

Randall

[RickC]

It's just that the program seems to have limitations with the end user's ability to easily tune the bike for peak HP and torque, which is when your're in wide open throttle, without taking your bike to an expert and put on a dyno jet (more money). It would be nice if the next version of TTS Mastertune has the ability to make up for this shortcoming.

If I am not mistaken, the issue here is not with the Mastertune, but with the stock ECM. Mastertune does not replace or reprogram the stock ECM. It simply adjusts the fuel tables for the stock ECM. Because the stock ECM does not operate in closed loop mode at WOT, the Mastertune cannot take readings to make adjustments in this area.

I think that what you are suggesting is that the Mastertune should become more like the ThunderMax w/AutoTune (TMAT) which completely replaces the stock ECM with it's own "brain". It operates in closed loop mode at all times and even replaces the stock narrow-band O2 sensors with wide-band O2 sensors like those used in most fuel-injected automobiles.

The TMAT is not a perfect solution. I had one on my 2007 Road Glide. I took it off before I traded and I'm gonna put it on my wife's 2007 FLSTC. However, the TMAT tends to run rich, so your mileage drops a bit. So, she may decide she doesn't like it on longer trips where her 5-gallon tank has trouble keeping up with those of u with 6-gallon tanks.

In the end, I'm not sure that most Harley owners are interested in yet another product that replaces the stock ECM. The MasterTune gives us a solid approach to getting more performance out of a Harley V-Twin without sacrificing the reliability (and warrantability) of the stock ECM.

Bottom line... everything is a trade-off.

[rheiner]

If I am not mistaken, the issue here is not with the Mastertune, but with the stock ECM. Mastertune does not replace or reprogram the stock ECM. It simply adjusts the fuel tables for the stock ECM. Because the stock ECM does not operate in closed loop mode at WOT, the Mastertune cannot take readings to make adjustments in this area.

Rick,

I respectfully disagree. Mastertune absolutely reprograms your stock ECM. Steve Cole needs to pipe in here to clarify it. The Harley stock ECM is the brain, or computer module, a piece of hardware, that tells when the spark plugs need to fire, timing, fuel flow in closed loop AND open loop, it can adjust the speedometer, and a whole lot more. The TTS dongle and the software programs that accompany the TTS kit simply allow you to modify the settings, or reprogram the ECM.

The Mastertune program does a whole lot more than allowing you to adjust fuel tables in closed loop. Mastertune has the cabability to do a complete tune of the bike, in closed loop operation AND open loop. The V-tune program, which integrates data that has been collected while you ride your bike (using the Data Master program), then combines the new data to make a new .mt7 file which is then flashed into the ECM using Mastertune.

V-tune only operates in closed loop. V-tune makes it very easy for the do-it-yoursefer to tune his bike, but V-Tune is limited to only closed loop operation. Without reading the help files, if I'm not mistaken, closed loop is throttle position at or less than about 60%. V-tune won't work at WOT (100% throttle position). I'm not sure why.

I'm just saying it would be nice if the do-it-yourselfer could do a tune complete tune, even at WOT rather than taking it to a dyno tuner, but there are probably technical limitations that simply won't allow that. Steve Cole explained how you can do a complete tune in open loop (see my quote above), but it doesn't sound like you can get very accurate results at WOT doing it yourself.

Randall