Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8 9 10  All

Author Topic: Top end "clacking" sound  (Read 56615 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

djkak

  • 1K CVO Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1278
  • FLHRSEI.ORG
Re: Top end "clacking" sound
« Reply #90 on: September 04, 2009, 10:03:42 PM »

I would take the 2006 hands down.
Same flywheel issues, the 5 speed is a big advantage over the 6sp DRAG (not Cruise) drive, better final drive gear ratio, the TB flows better and generally they are much easier to coax power out of to the tune of 10% more. If I wanted a 6 it would be a Baker DD6. Only con and easily changed the tensioners
HD used to stand for Hundred Dollar still the same but also Half Done. None of them are great but at least the earlier models were a stable platform to build up. They all can be fixed but that costs $$ and that is an insult after laying down 20-30+K for a new bike.The factory SE division continues on a pursuit of big long cams and big heads that run out the back door and the bottom ends that can't handle the load. Old news, and all of this keeps the aftermarket primed.

Suitability for a particular purpose is somewhat subjective. Folks that have ridden both the 5 and 6-speed machines can answer this question for themselves. For city riding, I never cared for the frequent hunt to be in the right gear when riding through town on a 5-speed. The 6-speed ratios are a much better match to the Twin Cam than the 5-speed ever was. I also really appreciate the long legs of the Cruise Drive. The 88’s don’t really have the torque to pull the big overall ratio of the 6-speed, so the 5-speed overall gearing is a better match for them. I do feel that the ’07 & ‘08 overall ratio was a little tall, and wasn’t the best for getting away from the curb on a loaded touring machine. 

The 27 year old "sliding gear" shift clutches in the 5-speed are heavy and require a lot of energy to start and stop moving. The lightweight shift rings used in the late model transmission is a strong setup that is much easier to control through a gear change.

One of my issues with the DD6 is that Baker runs a helical gearset which generates a great deal more thrust than straight spur gears, yet they opt to run the old single row PTO bearing. IMO running a setup like this behind a high torque powerplant is risky in the long term. I wouldn’t be comfortable running it behind a stock Twin Cam if I intended to put a lot of miles on it.

You didn’t mention anything specific about why you feel the ‘06 makes a more stable platform. IMO the ’07 is a better choice for reasons mentioned in my previous post. Additionally an upgraded ’06 continues to run a smaller diameter, lower capacity camshaft needle bearings in the crankcase. The upgrade also retains the somewhat problematic ball bearing in the hydraulic camplate. There are proprietary cams made which allow you to lose the ball bearings; although you are still stuck with the smaller diameter needle bearings.

I haven’t seen anything in the aftermarket that provides increased torsional load handling capabilities for high output H-D drivetrains. It only makes sense that these loads will increase with higher engine output. It is also apparent that relying on the rider’s technique to manage the load will not always return a positive result. If the SE motor sprocket and IDS are the only products currently available, then there is no fitment for 2006 and earlier powertrains. That all by itself is reason enough for me to take a pass on the early machinery for high output applications. As always, JMHO.
Logged

HD Street Performance

  • Vendor
  • 2.5K CVO Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3133
Re: Top end "clacking" sound
« Reply #91 on: September 04, 2009, 11:01:51 PM »

I don't profess the 06 is light years ahead of an 07 just a little better to build from IMO

OK I guess I must go into the details then

Note that the CVO110 has the same issues and more that have been well documented here and on other sites.

The 6sp cruise drive is a power leach and uses the same helical type gears you mentioned

"helical gearset which generates a great deal more thrust than straight spur gears"

In addition they have an awful 1st gear ratio (high gearing) so they are like launching in second with other bikes. The 6th gear is not really useable until about 70+ mph unless you are on level flat ground and if you have a high torque motor you risk slipping a wheel (IDS or not) when rolling on in 6th unless the final drive ratio is lowered and/or the crank has been plugged or welded. Primary compensator is a joke and bangs and clanks during starting and slow speed putting, of course the SE accessory fixes that ($250?). I could go on about the drivetrain.. but won't. The 5 speed has been around since 1983 (maybe before on the shovel FLT) and went through some bad years but has been stable and reliable for most even with abuse and high torque motors. Gear changes are even relatively as far as rpm drop. I have installed many 124" motors behind the factory 5sp and out of the box they make 130/130. Reliable. Grab the throttle and hold it wide open on one of these and we talk real performance, bet most riders can't make it past redline in 3rd without backing off. The 5sp is not perfect and high hp aps need a few mods to work well long term. The DD6 bikes I have worked on have had long hard lives reliably. The cruise drive no personal experience hammering them at the drags like I have the 5 speed so don't know about the strength. They aren't breaking but they clunk just the same as the older 5 speed on gear changes.

The 07up bikes retain more sump oil and that is a horsepower drag, foams the oil and adds heat and valvetrain noise

I personally own an 07 SG and have owned HDs since 1981 all models of big twins and have worked as a tech and riden them all mild to wild. None are great but the 02 model year has some good bikes to build up for performance use. Anything can be done with enough money but why? Shouldn't we be able to spend 20-30k and get more than a starter kit? I would be curious to see a stat on how many HD bikes are modified at or near purchase. The dealers encourage this and sell the SE add-ons hard at the time of sale. Of course not all explain that only "street legal" kits are covered under the factory warranty, for the motor portion.

The 2010 may be a ray of hope as the 6sp at least has had mods to fix 5th gear noise, the touring chasis is improved. Still nothing to write home about but if left alone would likely make it out of warranty without any issue, drivetrain related.

All just my humble opinions
« Last Edit: September 04, 2009, 11:12:49 PM by Deweysheads »
Logged

LarryB

  • Tennessee Squire
  • 2.5K CVO Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3656

    • CVO1: 09 FLTRSE3 The Grey Ghost
Re: Top end "clacking" sound
« Reply #92 on: September 05, 2009, 07:38:37 AM »

Dewey & DJ
good stuff here
Logged
Take it Easy Greasy Cuz it's a long walk home.

Did I shave my head for this?

HOGMIKE

  • 1K CVO Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2422
  • 65 FLH 93" + others
Re: Top end "clacking" sound
« Reply #93 on: September 05, 2009, 11:05:22 AM »

Interesting thread here!
It takes me back many moons ago when I lived in the midwest and was more in tune with what the factory was doing at the time.
A good friend of mine was hired for R&D away from Caterpillar to play with drive trains, especially engines. He seemed frustrated quite often that their concepts never made it to production. To him, it seemed a waste of resources to produce a quality product only to have it scrapped. The management at the time wanted to try everything (remember the introduction of the soft tail?)
His work at Harley was more fun than anything, all he had to do was focus on what he LIKED to do, not worry about consumer end results.
We had a mutual friend in MN who liked to try different setups on his drag bikes. Harley supplied him with parts, etc. and they had a nice little arraignment to see what worked and what broke. It's nothing different than what GM or Ford was doing at the time.
The engineers at the factory KNOW what works and how to do it. There is a huge maze of politics, procedures, programs, policies, etc. that effects the final product. (Damn bean counters!)
There are many riders who are perfectly satisfied with their stock bikes, but, of course they are not on THIS forum! LOL. Lets take a poll to see how many members here are OCD.....probably about 90%?? Why can't we leave our bikes alone? Well, it's not in our nature, is it?
I ride my bikes hard, I break stuff now and then, but, my bikes are more reliable and fun to ride than my friends rides.
Gee, I'm getting misty eyed!
Good info here, thanks you guys.
Logged
HOGMIKE

Dan_Lockwood

  • 1K CVO Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2498
Re: Top end "clacking" sound
« Reply #94 on: September 07, 2009, 11:07:33 AM »

When we were in Sturgis during '08, we went to Rapid City Convention Center for the HD new bike display.  While there I talked to the tech guys at HD near the motor displays.  By now I had a few thousand miles on my new '08 SERK and had questions about the rattles I had between 2500 to 3200 rpms.  Before this in '07 lots of people had their rocker boxes clearance to take care of some of the noise, maybe the keepers hit the boxes, but from what I read here they had an rpm related rattle as well.

So anyway, the conversation came to my rattles.  He acknowledged that the piston skirts were short, but his take on the noise was more harmonics in the valve train.  I saw the Beehive valve springs on the wall and coming from a streetrod background I asked him about the Beehive springs.  He said they were SE parts and available for use.  His opinion was the same as others within the car aftermarket industry that they worked better and did not set up any harmonics as they were progressively wound and used different gauge wire in different areas to cancel out vibrations.  A single Beehive spring can respond faster and reduce valve float in V-8s better than just going bigger and heftier in the double springs.

So my question here is, has anyone done the Beehive springs as part of the head work or just for the sake of cutting down on some of valve train harmonics?

I think if we took a survey on what rpms we ALL have this rattle at, about 2500 to 2700 rpms on the low end and on the top end 3200 to 3500 rpms would get just about everyone here.  If it were a mechanical rattle, like hitting something, it would not stop at the higher rpms as pronounced as it does.

The $64,000.00 question, would Beehive valve springs be worth installing when the heads are off for rework or headgaskets?

 :(  :(  :(
Logged
Dan

2009 SERG Orange / Black
Board Track Racer Project, Ultima 113"/6spd
2021 Coleman UT400 Side By Side

HD Street Performance

  • Vendor
  • 2.5K CVO Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3133
Re: Top end "clacking" sound
« Reply #95 on: September 07, 2009, 12:17:32 PM »

I would say maybe and probably not a help and could likely inject the same noise or similar just at a new resonant point or range. The reality is the valves are big and heavy and need pressure to control them. The stock spring is a very nice piece IMO and IME but have about about 175# seat pressure. You need similar pressure or close to that whether the spring is a Beehive or standard design. The SE beehive springs are 200# on the seat and could exagerate the issue. IME the beehives I have used (CompCams AV&V) with similar valves still have areas of harmonics that create sounds. The cam and lifters play a part in this song too. Hydraulic roller lifters compress and can start the song going.
More here
http://www.gofastnews.com/board/technical-articles/108-hydraulic-roller-race-oil-whats-worth.html

The pushrods are a long pogo stick or a better analogy a pole vault stick. Don't think the SE255 just because it is a stock grind doesn't have some rather steep ramps. Look at one VS the 96" stocker you will see.
Short skirts and piston slap may be there too but that is more of a constant not during a harmonic range. Slap has a load and unload differance too. A red herring IMO. Mahle are good pistons and fit tight.

OK no more rant, what to do.
Change cams to a grind known for ramps that are not overly fast (jerk)
Most Andrews grinds or S&S qualify.
For a stocker 110 the 32h is quiet and docile. 570 same. Either can use more compression to recapture the little hit off idle to 2,500. I have found Ferrea Springs to be the very quiet and I use the Titanium retainers with them but they are a little spendy. Otherwise I keep the stock springs and just set the pressures equal with shims.

« Last Edit: September 07, 2009, 12:20:43 PM by Deweysheads »
Logged

SBB

  • 10K CVO Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 16404
  • Go fast or go home! EBCM member # 2.36 .01%
    • CVO2: 2011.5 SEUC
    • CVO3: 2012 SERG
Re: Top end "clacking" sound
« Reply #96 on: September 07, 2009, 02:00:45 PM »

Dewey & DJ
good stuff here



Excellent thread here!

Larry, you nailed it.
I'm glad I asked the question about the 06 and earlier and the 07 and later question.
What I do know is that when I compare the bikes I own I find the earlier one's to be more reliable.
My 03 Classic at 50K miles has given NO TROUBLE except for a stator at 45K.
My 09 SEUC was fine till I hit 11K miles and it started ticking. Now at 19899 miles, it awaits new parts.
The front cylinder exhaust valve guide slipped and the exhaust valve stuck open.
Don't think either of these bikes have been babied. Abused nope, but not babied.
That is why I asked the question.

Put me in a contest to ride 3000 miles to California with a big money prize at the end and give me a choice of riding my 50K mile 03 Classic or my 09 SEUC, guess what.
And as much as I love my 09 Screaming Eagle Ultra w/new frame and all the whistles and bells it has, it's a damn $35,000.00 shame that I would pick the 03 Classic.

SBB


and again,
Dewey & DJ
good stuff!



« Last Edit: September 07, 2009, 02:36:36 PM by SBB »
Logged

2012      SERG  "Nu Blue"
2018      Goldwing   
2003      HD Electra Glide Classic Silver and Black, of course!                
2 2012   Suzuki Burgmans
2018      Shelby GT350, 963 crank hp, 825 rear wheel hp

DICKW

  • 1K CVO Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1908
  • If you ain't Riding..You ain't living
Re: Top end "clacking" sound
« Reply #97 on: September 07, 2009, 04:24:09 PM »

Good thread....yep

My 06 was a flawless running scoot, I changed for the frame and all the other goodies my 06 didn't have.

Bottom line though....if we can't work out the issues with the 110, I doubt it would be that difficult to put a 103 in.

Now should we??? Shouldn't have too.

I will run mine until I have a total lack of faith in it.........then see how I feel.



Logged
2009 Screaming Eagle Electra Glide Ultra Classic, Hawg Wired, KW 10.5, 2" Pull Back Handlebars, Dakota Digital, V&H Power Dual w/ Monster Ovals (Black Tips),
SE Air Cleaner, Zippers 575 Cams, Zippers Adjustable Push-rods, Fueling Lifters,
Thunder-Max Auto Tune, SE Compensator, Legend Air Suspension.

HD Street Performance

  • Vendor
  • 2.5K CVO Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3133
Re: Top end "clacking" sound
« Reply #98 on: September 07, 2009, 04:36:59 PM »

The 110 is not that bad
The root causes are easy to address. In the case of the oil leaking jugs that is fixed when they get scrapped and you use a 4.060 HD or Axtell jugs now you have a 113" or 117" if the cases are bored for that or a 110" with Axtell jugs is a fine combo  :D :orange:
Heads need guides and different seals, minimum, and new ACR solenoids
The rest of the issues are still there with a 96/103 late model.
The MOCO fixes of IDS, software, head gaskets made of Kevlar, blah blah blah
Band-aides IMO
The 09 heads have better valve seals and guides are tighter fit , press, in the head.... Finally
Still too much stem to guide clearance for my likeing
Logged

Hoist!

  • Monster
  • 10K CVO Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 21634
  • This chit ain't ROCKET SCIENCE!!!!

    • CVO1: '07C FLHRSE3, BLACK ICE OF COURSE, CUSTOM 110" TC 6-SPEED +++, "CYBIL"!!!
    • CVO2: '99 FXR3 BRIGHT & DARK CANDY BLUE W/FLAMES, STAGE II 80" EVO 5-SPEED +++, "JOY"!!!
    • CVO3: 4: & 5: '85 FXWG BLACK w/CUSTOM FLAMES, 110" EVO 6-SPEED +++ CVO style!!!; '08 NSMC PROSG CUSTOM FXR BASED PRO STREET BLACK, 89" EVO 5-SPEED, VERY FAST!!!; '09 NSMC HSTBBR CUSTOM RIGID HOISTBOBBER, SILVER METALFLAKE BATES SOLO SEAT & TIN w/BLACK WISHBONE FRAME, 80" EVO (w/Shovelhead bottom end) 4-SPEED! VERY COOL!!!
Re: Top end "clacking" sound
« Reply #99 on: September 07, 2009, 07:28:46 PM »

HeHe!!! This chit's hilarious!!! Stop comparing the new chit to the old chit! Yeah, they don't make chit like they used to! So what else is new?! HD can make em right, but the accountants who have to worry about the return to shareholder, won't let em! Either will the EPA!!! Youze know what needs to be done! we've all known it for years! If ya like your 88" motor, it'll prolly go another 50K! But you got a big ole cheapo HD motor in these CVO's, and they can't take it right out of the box! Bottom end-JUNK!!! Don't know if youze have ever heard this, but.......









THIS CHIT AIN'T ROCKET SCIENCE!!! ???








Ya want it to run like a 110 or bigger motor should run?








FTF!!! and FTW!!! ;)

Build it yourself the right way! Jeeze, all them guys who were complaining about our bitching 3 years ago are the ones who swore they'd never get one! Now they got one and they're the one's bitching!!! :o ::) :P :D

HeHe!!! YOU FD GUYS REALLY KILL ME!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Hoist! :coolblue:
Logged
"We wanna be free to ride our machines without being hassled by The Man!"

Traxxion Dynamics Suspension Rules! "It ain't braggin' if you can back it up!"

"Cause I'm sitting on top of the world!" (zoom in on satellite map in my Profile)

SBB

  • 10K CVO Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 16404
  • Go fast or go home! EBCM member # 2.36 .01%
    • CVO2: 2011.5 SEUC
    • CVO3: 2012 SERG
Re: Top end "clacking" sound
« Reply #100 on: September 07, 2009, 08:54:34 PM »

Good thread....yep



I will run mine until I have a total lack of faith in it.........


Dick

I agree completely.
Mine will be ready next week.
I'm at 20K miles in 11 months so I still have 13 months to go under warranty.
Except for just a couple things (extra work) warranty is covering all the cost of this recent issue.
Once this issue is corrected then my 110 is back on the road, hopefully with me smiling as I go down the road.
I expect to be close to 40K miles by the end of my warranty period.
And that's a good thing!

See you in the Valley!


SBB










 :2vrolijk_21:






Logged

2012      SERG  "Nu Blue"
2018      Goldwing   
2003      HD Electra Glide Classic Silver and Black, of course!                
2 2012   Suzuki Burgmans
2018      Shelby GT350, 963 crank hp, 825 rear wheel hp

djkak

  • 1K CVO Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1278
  • FLHRSEI.ORG
Re: Top end "clacking" sound
« Reply #101 on: September 08, 2009, 02:12:17 AM »

I wanted to stay more current with this discussion, but Labor Day fun must come first. It’s good that folks are enjoying this; that means we can wander a little off topic again without getting flamed back to 1968. It looks like this is going to run over the character limit for posting, so I’ll break it into two posts.

I initially weighed in, responding to the question; after all the 2007 crankshaft issues, what changes were implemented in 2008 that had a positive impact on reliability? There are a number of points put out on the ether that I wanted to get back to.
....The 6sp cruise drive is a power leach and uses the same helical type gears you mentioned.....
It is true that spur gears provide a more efficient power transfer than helical gears, but they make more mechanical noise. My understanding of Milwaukee’s reason for the placement of the helical gears in the Cruise Drive, was an effort to reduce mechanical powertrain sound, but only under very specific conditions. Reducing powertrain sound levels under criteria specified for the vehicle sound emission certification allows Milwaukee to increase the sound level from the exhaust, while maximizing power transfer efficiency of the transmission; it’s a good sound, bad sound kind of thing.

Running spur gears along with the helical gears resulted in a broad contrast in the sound from the transmission when shifting between the spur and helical gears. Folks riding the machines felt that something was wrong with 5th gear in the transmission and raised concerns. It seems that the concerns raised in the market, eclipsed the value of retaining the spur gear for 5th, and H-D replaced it with a helical gear. This is a great example of how subjective this sort of thing can be. Most folks feel that the 2010 transmission has been “fixed”. Some of us understand and agree with why this was done, but believe that it was a step backwards.

The Baker DD6 retrofit for the 5 speed housing raises several questions. Why replace spur gears with a helical gearset in this application, muchless in a performance application? Does Baker offer a spur gear option? Why retrofit helical gears into a spur gear housing that does not accommodate a high thrust PTO bearing? Does the complete DD6 transmission for a 2006 application run a high thrust PTO bearing?

The PTO bearing issue raises a red flag with me. It’s a little like seeing a supermodel with a finger stuck halfway up her nose. You agree strongly with the supermodel concept, but there is something that is not quite right which causes you to stay away.

Logged

djkak

  • 1K CVO Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1278
  • FLHRSEI.ORG
Re: Top end "clacking" sound
« Reply #102 on: September 08, 2009, 02:27:20 AM »

Quote from: Deweysheads
I don't profess the 06 is light years ahead of an 07 just a little better to build from IMO....
My take on the crankshaft issues that began in 2007 are:
1.   The crankpin was moved 3/16” further from the crankshaft center, increasing the stroke and the mechanical leverage of the flywheel’s inertia over the crankpin. This reduces the crankshaft’s capacity to resist high torsional load spikes.
2.   The longer stroke results in increased mechanical leverage resulting in higher torsional loads throughout the powertrain.
3.   The overall gear ratio changed substantially with the advent of the Cruise Drive to a numerically lower ratio. This change resulted in a substantial increase in load throughout the powertrain.

You have a scenario whereby the engine has increased capacity to produce high torsional loads; the crankshaft has reduced capacity to handle these loads and the drivetrain and chassis have less capacity to absorb and dampen these torsional load spikes. The engine makes more, and the rest of the powertrain and chassis absorb and dampen less.

The simple answer seems to be to build a stronger crankshaft, yet controlling the massive torsional load spikes created by this long stroke reciprocating engine is the answer, IMO. This is true with this powertrain as it is with any reciprocating, piston engine machine.

The answer to the question of what took care of the flywheel shift issues in ’08 and later machines, is the control of  low RPM output and the increased dampening of the powertrain through use of an IDS and a high torque motor sprocket with 7x increased capacity.

Quote from: Deweysheads
....if you have a high torque motor you risk slipping a wheel (IDS or not) when rolling on in 6th unless the final drive ratio is lowered and/or the crank has been plugged or welded....
If powertrain loads increase and nothing is done do counter them, the likelihood that parts are going to break will increase. It appears that the IDS is adequate for a stock applications, but as the engine’s output increases, the capacity to dampen the increasing torsional loads must increase with it.

....The MOCO fixes of IDS, software, head gaskets made of Kevlar, blah blah blah
Band-aides IMO....

With respect to crankshaft “Band-aides”; if a 2007, 96” 6-speed, putting out 95 crankshaft foot pounds will generate torque spikes of 1,500ish + foot pounds at the crankpin, what kind of spikes would you expect to find with an engine putting out 140+ foot pounds at the rear wheel? Do you think that it is possible to make up that kind of difference by simply reinforcing the crankpin?

I have heard that the plugs are good for about 5% increase in capacity. If this is true they are certainly better than a poke in the eye; although I wouldn’t bet the farm on them.

If it is true that welding the crankpin compromises the interference fit in the flywheel, then it may be possible under certain circumstances to actually reduce the load capacity of this joint by welding it. With the interference fit compromised, it is likely that the joint will begin to flex, eventually resulting in the failure of the weld.

I believe that in time the answer for folks building high output Twin Cam’s will be not to focus on building a bigger anvil, but to dampen the forces of the hammer; although exactly when is hard to say. Mechanical devices have been used effectively to dampen torsional loads in reciprocating, piston engine powertrain’s for many decades.

As always, JMHO.
Logged

Hoist!

  • Monster
  • 10K CVO Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 21634
  • This chit ain't ROCKET SCIENCE!!!!

    • CVO1: '07C FLHRSE3, BLACK ICE OF COURSE, CUSTOM 110" TC 6-SPEED +++, "CYBIL"!!!
    • CVO2: '99 FXR3 BRIGHT & DARK CANDY BLUE W/FLAMES, STAGE II 80" EVO 5-SPEED +++, "JOY"!!!
    • CVO3: 4: & 5: '85 FXWG BLACK w/CUSTOM FLAMES, 110" EVO 6-SPEED +++ CVO style!!!; '08 NSMC PROSG CUSTOM FXR BASED PRO STREET BLACK, 89" EVO 5-SPEED, VERY FAST!!!; '09 NSMC HSTBBR CUSTOM RIGID HOISTBOBBER, SILVER METALFLAKE BATES SOLO SEAT & TIN w/BLACK WISHBONE FRAME, 80" EVO (w/Shovelhead bottom end) 4-SPEED! VERY COOL!!!
Re: Top end "clacking" sound
« Reply #103 on: September 08, 2009, 06:49:00 AM »

Ya mean rubber donuts, and OPTIONAL SE Comp sprocket with non-shatterproof friction material on a thrust washer (or have they changed the motor sprcoket itself since '07?), is what fixed everything? Hmmmm......!!! How about going back to the reliable rebuildable bolted cranks and Timken bearings to handle the higher torsional loads. Wouldn't that make more sense? But at the result of going back to more expensive engines and lower return to shareholder, I think that's not gonna happen. ;)

Hoist! :coolblue:
Logged
"We wanna be free to ride our machines without being hassled by The Man!"

Traxxion Dynamics Suspension Rules! "It ain't braggin' if you can back it up!"

"Cause I'm sitting on top of the world!" (zoom in on satellite map in my Profile)

HD Street Performance

  • Vendor
  • 2.5K CVO Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3133
Re: Top end "clacking" sound
« Reply #104 on: September 08, 2009, 10:02:41 AM »

what kind of spikes would you expect to find with an engine putting out 140+ foot pounds at the rear wheel? Do you think that it is possible to make up that kind of difference by simply reinforcing the crankpin?

With my my engineering hat off I would say yes. John Hoban, Darkhorse Crankworks guarantees his factory reworked cranks for life against slipping wheels and coming out of true. They are a top notch firm and would be in trouble if they had plugged cranks coming back on them.

DJ you bring up what on the surface seem like logical arguments for the most part however I revert back to anecdotal evidence.

I worked at the dealer and an indy during the early 2000s and we built high performance 95-124" motors and they were relatively reliable bikes. Many lead hard lives. Not so long gone and not forgotten. It was not uncommon to build a 120hp 103" and 124" motors were 130 right out of the box. The 5 speed held fine, the cranks didn't slip except in the most extreme condition like a crash. The transmissions were not noisy when we used shockproof heavy oil, and shifted smoothly. They had no IDS, no retarded spark tables, and other peripherals to help make them stable, they just were inherently that way. A robust platform to add SE or aftermarket parts. Not so today and hasn't been the case since 2002.

II think the pendulum must swing wrong way for it to come back extreme the other wrong way and will eventually find center. HD is in a quagmire now and the first phase of that pendulum swing, similar to the American car manufacturers situation post muscle cars last good year 1970. Emissions, unleaded gas, and CAFE were the hitters. We are in the dog years now with the only light I can see being chassis and brake improvements. The pendulum will likely swing extreme on another tangent before it settles in the center and hopefully the SE program will survive and prosper. Today it is foolish to sell high rpm fire breathing parts for the motors that have such a weak foundation and drive train that causes a 10% HP and TQ loss compared to the 5 speed belt drive drive train. Sad state of affairs but it will improve and hopefully survive the hiccup.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8 9 10  All
 

Page created in 0.237 seconds with 20 queries.